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I agree 100%. It's exhausting fighting against antisemitic bias, and it feels like it's everywhere these days. My problem with Ed Martin is that what he is doing is clearly wrong. Hannah Arendt wrote a book about people like him.
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At a time when students are having their visas revoked merely for writing Op-Eds critical of Israel, it's rather ridiculous to see the pro-Israel side acting like you're the ones being persecuted everywhere.
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Since when do two wrongs make a right?
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Your post proves my point quite exactly. Here you busy othering Jewish people by using language like "acting like you're the ones being persecuted". JEWISH PEOPLE ARE BEING PERSECUTED. I myself have been subject to anti-semitic treatment on/off throughout my entire life. I have been called the K word in the past. Current coworkers say things even though I am not even an Israeli citizen, and then are sure to add "of course Moshe we are not talking about you"...

I don't support what happened to Mahmoud Khalil. The Trump administration is evil. I might support Israel's right to exist, but I voted for Kamala because I support the US a hell of a lot more. None of the ordinary citizens of Israel or Palestine or the US is responsible for what's happening in Israel.

https://www.adl.org/resources/press-release/new-fbi-data-ref...

If you're not Jewish it might be a little difficult to understand. I know quite a few Jews who do not dare light a menorah in their window. Who don't dare fly an Israeli flag or identify themselves as Jews in any way. I am secular, but synagogues have to have armed security.

Jewish people != Israeli government.

By the way, Americans are absolutely safe traveling to Israel. You simple cannot say the same thing for almost any Arab country. Well, that's how Jews feel almost everywhere in the world.

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The fact that my comment is -2 on HN is a great example of the problem.

I'm working on a solution to the effects of this isolation, but it's not ready for a big announcement.

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Could one of you point me to antisemitic bias on wikipedia just so I have a concrete example at hand?
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I tried giving it a shot. It starts with an "executive summary", followed by an intro to how Wikipedia works. The very first link to any concrete evidence is by a guy who has a page on PragerU with gems like "Russian collusion hoax" and how the "mainstream media" is "fake news".

It's a pretty simple case of Wittgenstein's ruler for me. It tells me more about ADL as an org than the content.

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The analysis there is not convincing.

It is obvious that Wikipedia admins communicate with each other. The fact that Aljazeera is referenced is also okay.

In fact, this is not the official Israeli narrative, it seems rather trustworthy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_co...

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Instead of posting another person's argument that contains your source can you be more specific?

This is like citing an entire book to prove a point.

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The ADL destroyed any credibility they had worked to build when they started conflating criticism of israel with antisemitism.
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Oh, that's VERY interesting. Thank you very much. Needs to be checked a bit more thoroughly, but the ADL report and the D.C. U.S. attorney's letter seem to have significant thematic overlap. It could well have served as one of the sources.
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I'm not sure the organization that defended Musk's Nazi salute is a reliable source on antisemitism.
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Basically, almost any time Zionists are mentioned, they're mentioned in a negative light and with genuine disinformation, such as that Zionism is the belief that Arabs needs to be destroyed. That is like saying the Civil Rights movement in the US was about killing white people.

They also position things in such a way that implies antisemitic things, such as saying that Zionism is only 200 years old, or discussing the Israel wars only or primarily through an Arab lens.

These biases around Jewish topics are small individually but large in aggregate, especially in how they present Jews and Jewish topics.

Multiple Jewish and civil rights organizations have done a more comprehensive job at discussing this, even organizations who don't usually agree on things. While they talk about "anti-Israel bias" Wikipedia articles on or mentioning Zionism (80% of Jews are Zionist) are IMHO just as, if not more damaging, and demonstrate the issue.

Most importantly though, talk to the Jews in your life about this. They will tell you.

https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/wikipedia-entrie...

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-846563

https://cameraoncampus.org/blog/seven-tactics-wikipedia-edit...

https://www.adl.org/resources/report/editing-hate-how-anti-i...

https://www.standwithus.com/post/it-s-time-to-correct-wikipe...

https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-edit...

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Zionism, as a belief system and ideology, is one built on colonialism and manifest destiny. That's literally, plainly, what it is. Naturally, these have associations with bad things. Most colonialist movements in history were bad for the people getting colonized.

You cannot subscribe to a belief and simultaneously exempt yourself from all consequences of that belief. What I mean is, if you are a Zionist, then you believe some people should be displaced in a conquest for your people. What happens to them? You cannot say "well, we can do it without displacement" or "well, I don't believe that".

No. That is the consequence of what you belief, and you therefore MUST stand by it. You MUST believe you are entitled to the land and sovereignty of Arabs, whether you choose to articulate that belief or not.

This is something Zionists sometimes struggle to comprehend. They wish to live in an alternate reality, where they can keep their beliefs and magically get to an outcome they desire without anyone getting hurt. It doesn't work that way. If your belief hurts people, _that means you want to hurt people_.

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>Basically, almost any time Zionists are mentioned, they're mentioned in a negative light and with genuine disinformation,

Your first statement is a sweeping generalization that you can't prove

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I don't know if that statement is true or not, but it certainly seems like a specific enough statement that could be proved or disproved given enough effort.
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Not an amount of effort in the realm of this discussion and that's all that matters
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Most of the jews I know are through anti-genocide activism and they have a different view of this. I wanted to check because it is important to me that I not engage in antisemitism. Thanks for the info.
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No I mean literally we are part of an organization focused on preventing and ending genocide broadly. Israel-palestine is one of them but there are several others ongoing and several more that may escalate into genocide in the next few months or years. I do see why you have a hard time with wikipedia.
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The question was about antisemitism (hatred of Jews or Semitic people), not about Zionists, and you completely failed to point to a single example of antisemitic bias on Wikipedia, which is what you were asked to do.
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The vast majority of Jews are Zionists, and the two topics are inextricably linked. What would expect antisemitic bias on Wikipedia to look like? What would you accept as evidence?
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I'm not sure what you're talking about. And I'd expect you to show some of the bias.
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Could you point me to an example of what you have in mind on wikipedia? I'm admittedly not as practiced at discerning subtle antisemitism as I am some other forms of discrimination. But also usually when it's being alluded to in the abstract like this people mean something closer to "criticism of israel's actions."
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I didn't read that because the person asked for an example and you directed them to a 150 printed page article where you didn't specify which page(s)

This is the equivalent of stating that dinosaurs evolved into birds then when asked for one piece of evidence directing a person to a book, by another author, on how dinosaurs evolved into birds

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Look, these people spent a lot of time and energy putting together a list. It's a lot better than anything I could put together.
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OK yeah I've read that. Thanks.
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Anti semitism or anti Zionist? Asking as the ADL doesn't seem to understand that there's a difference.
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This is the same ADL that said that Nazi salutes are fine, but that protesting against genocide isn't? Why do we care what the ADL says about anything? They're fascist sympathisers.
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It was not remotely okay that they did this, and I agree that refusing to speak out severely hurt their credibility. The next time I get a fundraising email, I'm going to tell them they can kiss something.
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Demanding moral perfection from an organization in order to believe that discrimination exists is a standard that I don't believe is fair to any group.
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I don't demand "moral perfection", but I draw the line at overt fascism. The ADL are fascist sympathisers.
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Did you read the statement they put out later that day about Musk, or the day after?

I agree this was a terrible move on the ADL's part, and there have been others, but you're essentially labeling the oldest anti-hate group "fascist" because you disagree with one statement they made.

This dismisses any concerns they raise, or if someone else says the same as them, then they too must be pro-facist.

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He also tweeted in approval of this tweet putting forward the "Jewish people planned it" antisemitic form of great replacement theory with "you have said the actual truth":

> Jewish communties have been pushing the exact kind of dialectical hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them.

> I'm deeply disinterested in giving the tiniest shit now about western Jewish populations coming to the disturbing realization that those hordes of minorities that support flooding their country don't exactly like them too much.

> You want truth said to your face, there it is.

Then a bit later Musk gives the heil Hitler salute twice in a row, once facing the crowd, then turned around and gave it facing Trump.

The stuff the ADL put out after the salutes was only after he added on jokes involving Nazi party members, right? Or was the one later that day before that?

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