upvote

points

by tetris11285 days ago |
comments
upvoteby vintagedave285 days ago|
next
[-]
This is the kind of thing that makes me love HN. An idea I would never have thought of, with an immediately obvious use in multiple ways (fall path plus ideal lumber cutting?), probably very difficult, yet being tackled with one implementation already... and spoken of quite humbly.
reply
upvoteby teleforce283 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
Having joined may father and his friend during the process of cutting down big trees in the village neighborhood I can personally vouch that this indeed a cumbersome and very complex task for both the planning and the execution phases. However, for us the tasks are made easier by the trimming of the tree's branches since my father's friend is the expert tree climber.

From your descriptions, it seems that your tree cutting procedures do not involved precut of the tree's branches before cutting the tree down.

I've got the feeling that this cutting tree problem can be solved by constraint programming techniques [1],[2]. Alternatively generic tools for constraint programming, for example OR-Tools and MiniZinc can probably do the same if not better [3],[4].

[1] Logic, Optimization, and Constraint Programming: A Fruitful Collaboration - John Hooker - CMU (2023) [video]:

https://www.youtube.com/live/TknN8fCQvRk

[2] "We Really Don't Know How to Compute!" - Gerald Sussman - MIT (2011) [video]:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=HB5TrK7A4pI

[3] Google OR-Tools:

https://developers.google.com/optimization

[4] MiniZinc:

https://www.minizinc.org/

reply
upvoteby cacheorbit284 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
Testing this is real pain in the ass, you gotta cut real tree to see if it works in various situations :(
reply
upvoteby Xmd5a284 days ago|
parent|
next
[-]
I got filtered by the Ent arc of LOTR and dropped the book.
reply
upvoteby downboots279 days ago|
parent|
prev|
[-]
Not if tree cutting simulator is a VR experience
reply
upvoteby chaosharmonic284 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
Funny, one of mine also involves trees -- but is mostly outdoor cleanup. The kind that involves decades' worth of it, thanks to what I'll just say is a lot of maintenance that wasn't done over a long time. There's an extensive amount of brush, leaves, etc of varying ages that could maybe be shredded up into something useful, invasive vines I'm still trying to deal with, and more old trash than I've fully figured out how to properly dispose of.

It's turning into various DIY rabbit holes, actually, with the next one (outside of various related landscaping stuff) being to gut a basement.

reply
upvoteby defterGoose284 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
I would love to have such a model tell me how to prune my fruit trees as they grow up. Should be a fairly straightforward supervised problem with the right front end for the graph generation.
reply
upvoteby toss1284 days ago|
parent|
next
[-]
You can start right now with an algorithm I learned from an expert when I was working in a landscaping business.

It is a very simple three-pass plan: "Deadwood, Crossovers, Aesthetics".

So, first pass, go through the tree cutting out only and all the dead branches. Cut back to live stock, and as always make good clean angle cuts at a proper angle (many horticulture books will provide far better instructions on this).

Second pass, look only for branches that cross-over other branches and especially those that show rubbing or friction marks against other branches. Cut the ones that are either least healthy or grow in the craziest direction (i.e., crazy away from the normal more-or-less not radially away from the trunk).

Then, and only after the other two passes are complete, start pruning for the desired look and/or size & shape for planned growth or bearing fruit.

This method is simple and saves a LOT of ruined trees from trying to first cut to size and appearance, then by the time the deadwood and crossovers are taken later, it is a scraggly mess that takes years to grow back. And it even works well for novices, as long as they pay attention.

I'd suspect entering the state and direction of every branch to an app would take longer than just pruning with the above method, although for trees that haven't fully leafed out, perhaps a 360° angle set of drone pics could make an adequate 3D model to use for planning?

In any case, good luck with your fruit trees — may they grow healthy and provide you with great bounty for many years!

reply
upvoteby pbhjpbhj284 days ago|
parent|
prev|
[-]
When i read OP this is what I thought it was going to be - these branches are going to be apex competitors, these are crossing or going to cross, this one shows signs of disease, this one interrupts air flow through the centre, etc.
reply
upvoteby monkeywithdarts285 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
I was imagining something like this for pruning fruit trees — something to help noobs like me see how to put pruning guidelines into practice on a real, overgrown tree. Good luck!
reply
upvoteby r0fl285 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
That’s a great idea, but so much liability if the user is an amateur and follows steps incorrectly
reply
upvoteby JackFr285 days ago|
parent|
[-]
Or perhaps follows the steps correctly.
reply
upvoteby conductr284 days ago|
parent|
[-]
Making this determination alone will sink you in legal fees

Does an insane amount of fine print really save you? Even if you say the model is only an aide to be used by licensed or certified professional arborists or whatever, I fear some Joe blow whose tree lands on his house will be suing you.

reply
upvoteby rapjr9283 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
I've been thinking for years about a safer alternative to chain saws. Something along the lines of a carbide coated wire driven by an electric motor and battery. Strap it to the tree, turn it on, walk away and some minutes later the tree falls down. The main difficulty is in how to drive the wire. Using friction would create fast wearing parts. Maybe a chain could be used instead of a wire. It could oscillate back and forth, instead of having to be wrapped and spliced to form a circle around the tree. It seems really strange that no one has come up with an alternative to chain saws for decades (except for large scale trucks that can process whole trees.) For small trees and branches even a sawz-all is safer than a chain saw. Inspired by spending some time sharing a hospital room with a guy who had a chain saw accident, but I still haven't come up with a workable idea. Maybe someone else can.
reply
upvoteby beau_g283 days ago|
parent|
next
[-]
I was thinking I could use a tool just like the wire you described to remove a stump, after I spent 6 hours with a 5ton Bobcat trying to dig up a 3ft diameter pine stump to no avail today. For felling trees though, you need precise front cuts/back cuts to drop the tree at a desired angle, you can't just cut in one direction even if you have a cable attached.
reply
upvoteby downboots279 days ago|
parent|
prev|
next
[-]
Perhaps drilling in a wedge shape so it weakens the branch and it eventually breaks off naturally but it seems like more work than just a chain saw. The holes could also be used for steam treatment, enzymes [0] or something else to break it.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignin-modifying_enzyme

reply
upvoteby Surac277 days ago|
parent|
prev|
next
[-]
I use a tool called the Alligator. Is is a tool you can use like scissors. It has 2 chains on the inside of the the business ends. You put around the branch. Close the end and press the button. Springs will then close the end even more and cut the wood. No open chains
reply
upvoteby jaredhallen283 days ago|
parent|
prev|
next
[-]
I hear you on the safety angle, but chainsaws work really well. They're also very versatile.
reply
upvoteby tetris11283 days ago|
parent|
prev|
[-]
We use a winch to guide the branches down, but would never apply the winch directly to the tree in case of whiplash when the branch finally breaks
reply
upvoteby scandox284 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
Forgive my ignorance but all the tree cutting I've observed has been based on climbing and cutting in segments from the top rather than letting the tree fall. Under what circumstances is it better or necessary to actually let the tree fall?
reply
upvoteby shatnersbassoon284 days ago|
parent|
next
[-]
IANAL (L=lumberjack) but it's clearly going to be cheaper if you can just chop it down, right? Quicker and less equipment required, less danger to life from having to climb and wield a chainsaw in an elevated position. Also, if you are interested in getting long planks out of the trunk, you would not want to cut it down progressively.
reply
upvoteby beau_g283 days ago|
parent|
prev|
next
[-]
Any tree near civilization that someone wants to pay to cut down is likely going to be at a distance from a structure, powerlines, or pipes in the ground (that's also the reason they want it removed) where felling it as it lies is not likely an option which is why you see them sectioned down or done with a crane or bucket truck. A lot of these trees done by tree care companies in residential or commercial areas are also sprawling hardwood trees like oaks that can't always be safely just dropped from the ground even if there's a clear area to drop it in. For logging or wildland firefighting, most of the trees being dropped are straight growing softwoods like pine or fir that are just dropped from the ground (or by machine).
reply
upvoteby curmudgeon22283 days ago|
parent|
prev|
[-]
I think it depends on how much space there is for the tree to safely fall. If there isn’t enough space to accommodate the height of the tree, it needs to be done in controlled segments.
reply
upvoteby jwineinger284 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
I was thinking of something similar during pruning season for my apple trees a few months ago. I even went so far as to take a scan of one of my trees with Luma and had it generate a 3D render of it. This worked surprisingly well, though it did take several days to get it rendered as it seemed their service was saturated.

My need/idea was to post that some where (r/backyardorchard probably) to get help in determining which limbs to prune. However, there didn't seem to be an easy way to share that sort of thing and time was of the essence, so I just forged ahead on my own.

reply
upvoteby javiercornejo285 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
Where I live this could be very helpful becuase people is too, how to say it, maybe ignorant in safety and logic specs. Also could be usefull to know or estimate what tree are in a innminent or highr posibilities of fall with wind.

Happy to help!

reply
upvoteby willtemperley284 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
Cool idea. Just wondering why you wouldn't use Lidar for this? I'd have thought the spatial fidelity of a Lidar model would provide a much better model of the weight distribution of a tree.
reply
upvoteby 1970-01-01285 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
Do consider the value of the wood in relation to your cuts. A well-placed cut not only guarantees safety but will also take the maximum board feet from the tree.
reply
upvoteby boogieknite284 days ago|
parent|
next
[-]
i work a lot with NVEL for this. one time even tried porting nvel to wasm for fun and client accessibility. we "virtually buck" trees which seems like could be applied to your proposed use case. if op wants to go down this path: https://github.com/FMSC-Measurements/VolumeLibrary/tree/77d4...
reply
upvoteby dyauspitr285 days ago|
parent|
prev|
[-]
Seems insignificant. What are you optimizing for- an extra foot or two?
reply
upvoteby 1970-01-01285 days ago|
parent|
[-]
Yes, board feet is usually measured by the inch.
reply
upvoteby skeeter2020284 days ago|
parent|
next
[-]
with dimension lumber it's way more about the width you can cut than length; sometimes shorter is more valuable depending on supply & demand (and transport). Accounting for the fact that trees are not perfect cylinders (or cones, really) is where all the fun optimization comes from anyways.
reply
upvoteby boogieknite284 days ago|
parent|
[-]
good ol conical frustum
reply
upvoteby dyauspitr285 days ago|
parent|
prev|
next
[-]
Then just make the cut as low to the ground as possible. You don’t need a lot of complex math for that.
reply
upvoteby boogieknite284 days ago|
parent|
next
[-]
the right cuts at the right heights while working down the tree from a specific max height of the tree to still produce viable board feet while maximizing boards per cut. in most places, unless youre pulping the entire tree, its quite a bit more complicated than cut as low as possible.

its surprising to me how little work is done to make the tools which do this accessible considering how much money and open data there is.

it gets less open and more complicated is when you consider certain mills only can make certain cuts, produce certain products, and accept certain logs. then factor in distance between mills and the products they can make, and also log lengths accepted by the trucks which can travel those routes.

its all solvable and should be, but its so niche and that i still think there isnt an accessible solution

reply
upvoteby oslem284 days ago|
parent|
prev|
[-]
No offense, but this comment is very reductionist. The problem isn’t nearly as simple as you’re making it out to be.
reply
upvoteby mon_285 days ago|
parent|
prev|
[-]
Aren't longer boards worth more per boardfoot too?
reply
upvoteby jermaustin1284 days ago|
parent|
next
[-]
Yes, and the wider the more it costs per bf as well.

I have a couple products I make that require 12" widths, which means I pay a whole lot more per bf than < 10" widths at my hardwood supplier.

reply
upvoteby trollbridge284 days ago|
parent|
prev|
[-]
Yes, but most trees are plenty tall enough.
reply
upvoteby firesteelrain284 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
You should branch out (hehe) into flower and plant pruning suggestions with your app. ChatGPT can do this now if prompted.
reply
upvoteby postscapes1284 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
This is great idea - I have a huge tree in front yard that will either cost be $5-10k to come down or was going to rent lift and do it myself - A few particular branches scare me though in terms of how they will come down... Bonus points for where to tie things off.
reply
upvoteby emmelaich284 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
Trees cost a lot of money to bring down. I've ideas for an automated cutter but it's a surprisingly difficult problem.
reply
upvoteby boogieknite284 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
i work in forestry software and am curious about your methods. is any of this open source? any intention on supporting growth modeling?
reply
upvoteby tetris11284 days ago|
parent|
[-]
I plan for a time-bomb license (closed source for 10 years, make my money (if any), GPLv3 after that).

My methods are all over the place. Tree is taken as-is on the day, and cuts calculated on the fly, no future growth-modelling if that is what you're asking

reply
upvoteby mon_285 days ago|
prev|
next
[-]
How does the graph representation help you solve the problem?
reply
upvoteby tetris11284 days ago|
parent|
[-]
I was mixing methods, sorry. My initial rendition for solving the cuts would initialise a somewhat sparse network from tree to ground, and solve for non-overlapping paths.

This became convoluted and I just opted for a far easier method of solving vector intersections.

Its also not perfect since I haven't factored in rotation origin very well, and I'm now pursuing a far simpler physics-based approach

reply
upvoteby pm2222284 days ago|
prev|
[-]
Perhaps an opportunity for weed control for lawn as well.
reply