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The report to the government about a more than 50% fraud rate was from six years ago. The Minnesota government was not serious about dealing with problem. Most businesses would not last that long with a 50% customer fraud rate.

Yes, there were some investigations and convictions, but nothing to on a scale that would deal with problem, nor any systematic change to a level paying huge amounts of money to scammers.

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He cites the 50% number from Jay Swanson, a CCAP Investigations Unit manager, and then dismisses criticism of the number by saying the criticism requires an unreasonable standard (only criminal convictions).

But if you read the cited source of how Swanson came up with that number he said it wasn't just for over-billing (claiming more kids than the places actually had).

Instead, by his estimation, the employees working are not actually working because 'children are unsupervised, running from room to room while adult “employees” spend hours in hallways chatting with other adults' and so all of the funds to those providers are fraudulent. [1]

I think it's pretty easy to criticize the logic for that 50% fraud rate number without requiring criminal convictions.

[1] https://www.auditor.leg.state.mn.us/sreview/ccap.pdf#page=16

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This is a great argument. I wish this is what we were discussing rather than Nick Shirley and the partisan politics of the issue.
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Oddly enough starting an article with a defense of Nick Shirley leads to the comments on an article being about that.
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I mean, I wouldn't have led off that way either, but I know what Patrick is talking about and I read the article. I genuinely believe the current administration is the worst in the history of the country, and I also believe that to oppose it effectively we need every government body we run to be completely on the ball, so it's really dispiriting to see people reflexively defend misconduct and incompetence. That shouldn't be a habit we share with the party we oppose.

(I can't speak for Patrick's politics, only for mine.)

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No government body is run completely on the ball, which is why it's such an effective bad-faith demand.

I don't even know where this belief comes from. I'm certainly not aware of any historical scenario where authoritarian regimes end when their opponents finally embody perfect behavior above reproach.

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5 years ago. And it looks like the state was actually taking pretty aggressive moves against the fraud including ongoing investigations and legislation to shut down the fraud. [1]

There was active prosecution ongoing literally right up until Shirly's video. That's taking the matter seriously.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020s_Minnesota_fraud_scandals

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>There was active prosecution ongoing literally right up until Shirly's video

Oh yeah, the prosecution was sooo active that all the daycares listed as operational and receiving funding, had no kids in them, had blacked out or boarded up windows, misspelled signs, and if you went in to ask for enrollment 3 angry men would come out shouting at you. How many legit daycares have you seen that look like that?

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Yes, because when I enroll a child in a daycare I start by wandering around the facilities with a camera man and then I demand to see the children. But sure is suspicious that this place has no kids in it when I visit it outside it's posted operation hours.

Nick did a day worth of shooting, didn't follow up, and didn't check basic things like hours of operation.

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Right, everybody, especially the author of this piece, agrees that what Shirley did was bad and stupid. And also unnecessary, because we had documentary evidence from the Minnesota government itself showing the scale of the fraud here.
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I doubt Patrick is the world's biggest Nick Shirley fan, but that's not really how it's conveyed in the article.

Shirley gets acknowledged to have "poor epistemic standards" (which is an almost euphemistic way of describing his approach) but Patrick goes on to say that "the journalism develops one bit of evidence...." and even appears to insinuate the NYT erred in reporting it in the context of the Minnesota government's response that the state's own compliance checks had found them open shortly afterwards but that some of them were under investigation.

There's an interesting point to be made that detailed, bipartisan evidence collected by suitably qualified officials that some daycenters were closed at times they were claimed to be open gets less attention than a YouTuber with an agenda rocking up at nurseries at what may or may not have been their opening times, but that's not how it's actually expressed. Rather it seems to be arguing for face value judgements of his video and against journalists that felt compelled to point out that whilst evidence of daycare fraud by Somalis in Minnesota definitely existed, Shirley's videos probably shouldn't be considered part of it.

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The way I phrased that point was "The investigators allege repeatedly visiting daycare centers which did not, factually, have children physically present at the facility despite reimbursement paperwork identifying specific children being present at that specific time. The investigators demonstrated these lies on timestamped video, and perhaps in another life would have been YouTube stars."
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[flagged]
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The mainstream media was reporting on it 6 years ago. They reported on the 50 convictions too, which people whose information environment is YouTube tend to be unaware of.

Of all the things that threaten the future of mainstream reporting, YouTubers running round Ohio for an hour trying to find people who think Haitians are eatinng the local pets isn't one of them.

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He does not in fact call what Shirley did "bad and stupid". He calls him a journalist!
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>I start by wandering around the facilities with a camera man

How does one wandering around with a camera affect the fact that the daycares had blacked out or boarded up windows, misspelled signs, and if you went in to ask for enrollment then 3 angry men would come out shouting at you?

Do you even hear yourself? Are they Schrodinger's daycares? Do they become compliant the moment you stop filming them?

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Tell you what, go get a camera man and go visit your local daycare center. Post on youtube how they respond.
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I predict that they would not spontaneously board up the windows and introduce spelling errors into their signage.
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You're beating it around the bush going offtopic and ignoring my question:

How does having a camera impact the daycare having a misspelled sign and boarded up windows?

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> You're beating it around the bush going offtopic and ignoring my question:

No I'm not, you just don't like the answer. But at least you've edited to remove the "3 guys yelling at you" portion as I think even you can see how that might be a reasonable thing to do to a creep going around you business filming everything.

> daycare having a misspelled sign and boarded up windows?

The answer to this question is simple, a poor one. And I suspect that a daycare that primarily gets it's funds from people using government welfare likely isn't rolling in the dough. Broken windows are expensive to fix, boards are cheap. A misspelled sign is embarrassing but again could easily be something that the owner of the facilities just wasn't assed to pay to replace and properly fix.

My spouse worked for years in that sort of daycare which is why it's unsurprising to me that a daycare in that state exists. She, for example, did a full summer in Utah without AC while the kids were fed baloney sandwiches every day. Her's wasn't a daycare committing fraud, it was just an owner that was cutting costs at every corner to make sure their own personal wealth wasn't impacted.

A shitty daycare isn't an indicator of fraud. It's an indicator that the state has low regulation standards for daycares. Lots of states have that, and a lot of these places end up staying in operation because states decide that keeping open an F grade daycare is cheap and better for the community vs closing it because it's crap quality. They certainly don't often want to take control of such a business and they know a competently ran one isn't likely to replace it if it is shutdown.

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>My spouse worked for years in that sort of daycare

Was your spouse also one of the all-male crews that those totally-not-a-scam MN daycares typically have?

How many legit daycares have you ever seen where the staff is all men? And aggressive men at that. Just think about it for 3 seconds.

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>How many legit daycares have you ever seen where the staff is all men? And aggressive men at that.

None in my entire life. They're all ladies. Any guys are dads coming through.

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Now you are going off topic. I suspect because you don't like a reasonable answer that doesn't fit your fraud narrative.

Men can work at daycares but also we have no clue what those guys relationship to the business was.

Just think about it for 3 seconds.

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>Now you are going off topic. [...] Men can work at daycares

No mate, YOU are going offtopic. I never said men CAN'T work daycares, I asked you "How many legit daycares have you ever seen where the staff is ALL-MEN?". This is the n'th time in this thread you misread what I say, to the point I can confidently say you're intentionally doing this in bad faith to derail the conversation, which is why this will be my last reply to you.

> also we have no clue what those guys relationship to the business was.

Except they also interviewed MN citizens who live in the area who also said they never saw any kids or women at that daycare with the misspelled "Learing" sign.

How many more points on the graph that form a line do you need to admit that it's an obvious scam?

>I suspect because you don't like a reasonable answer that doesn't fit your fraud narrative.

I just look at the evidence and use critical thinking to judge. You're the one not bringing any evidence to support your not-a-scam narrative and intentionally misreading my questions to give bad faith offtopic answers.

>Just think about it for 3 seconds.

Parroting someone is flattering but not a sign of good arguing skills.

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To put it mildly I don't think there's a consensus among Minnesota DFL-types who paid attention to this that the state at any point took the matter seriously in proportion to its severity. There's a lot of evidence that they did the opposite thing. I try to avoid openly identifying my partisan commitments (see this whole thread for why) but: this shit is what we Democrats constantly dunk on the GOP for doing, and we're not acquitting ourselves well here.

It's annoying that we're talking about this in these terms, because the article is about public services fraud, and it's mostly technical, and it's an interesting subject. We shouldn't have to debate Tim Walz to engage with it.

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The volume of prosecution that had occurred or was slated to occur was laughable compared to the amount of fraud known or reasonably believed to have occurred. When it is done at scale, prosecution is inefficient and much less effective than reforming processes so as to preempt fraud, which is not something that happened, as evidenced by the continuing fraud after the initial round of prosecution.

FTA:

> So-called “pay-and-chase”, where we put the burden on the government to disallow payments for violations retrospectively, has been enormously expensive and ineffective. Civil liability bounces off of exists-only-to-defraud LLC. Criminal prosecutions, among the most expensive kinds of intervention the government is capable of doing short of kinetic war, result in only a ~20% reduction in fraudulent behavior. Rearchitecting the process to require prior authorization resulted in an “immediate and permanent” 68% reduction. (I commend to you this research on Medicare fraud regarding dialysis transport. And yes, the team did some interesting work to distinguish fraudulent from legitimate usage of the program. Non-emergency transport for dialysis specifically had exploded in reimbursements—see Figure 1— not because American kidneys suddenly got worse but because fraudsters adversarially targeted an identified weakness in Medicare.)

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First: assuming your goal is to stop the fraud, does making deliberately inflammatory YouTube videos get you closer to that goal? I think the government's response clearly shows that they're more interested in the optics of "blue state full of scammer immigrants" than any actual resolution.

Second: I think one of the points Patrick misses is that fraud did indisputably occur, but that doesn't mean we need to treat Shirley as a neutral observer who simply cares about fiscal responsibility. (If I'm wrong, I eagerly away his next video on red state fraud.)

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He's not treating Shirley as a neutral observer; he's lamenting Shirley's involvement, which has impeded efforts to clean this up.
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> What is the issue? That these investigations should have been more prominently featured in the mainstream news?

Important points throughout the article include: relatively little prosecution or enforcement occurred despite the awareness of rampant fraud; officials were naive to the common wisdom in fraud-prevention circles that people committing fraud in the past correlates strongly with the same individuals committing fraud in the future; "pay-and-chase" policies don't preempt funding flows to individuals suspected of fraud until it's established and feel the need to account for every fraudulent dollar instead of just blacklisting known bad actors the way that actual financial institutions do. FTA in particular, all emphasis FTA:

> For example, the primary evidence of a child attending a day-care was a handwritten sign-in sheet of minimal probative value. Prosecutors referred to them as “almost comical” and “useless.” They were routinely fraudulently filled out by a 17 year old “signing” for dozens of parents sequentially in the same handwriting, excepting cases where they were simply empty.

> To refute this “evidence”, the state forced itself to do weeks of stakeouts, producing hundreds of hours of video recording, after which it laboriously reconstructed exact counts of children seen entering/exiting a facility, compared it with the billing records, and then invoiced the centers only for proven overbilling.

> On general industry knowledge, if you are selected for examination in e.g. your credit card processing account, and your submission of evidence is “Oh yeah, those transactions are ones we customarily paperwork with a 17 year old committing obvious fraud”, your account will be swiftly closed. The financial institution doesn’t have to reach a conclusion about every dollar which has ever flowed through your account. What actual purpose would there be in shutting the barn door after the horse has left? The only interesting question is what you’ll be doing tomorrow, and clearly what you intend to do tomorrow is fraud.

Moving on,

> I don't think the serious response to Nick Shirley's "journalism" is that there was no fraud; rather, it's that he came into the situation with a thinly veiled agenda and fed his audience exactly what they wanted to hear.

My take is that there's no good reason to suspect that, except for holding an opposed thinly veiled agenda. And there is no serious dispute of the fact that billions of dollars of fraud occurred.

> Did his video make it more or less likely that we'll be able to investigate and resolve the fraud situation in MN?

It clearly made it more likely, as demonstrated by federal senate hearings that have extensively referenced the video (I've seen a segment where a senator literally had a prop photo of the "Quality Learing Center").

> the fact that they seized on this as an excuse to send in 3000 ICE agents is not exactly promising.

Your premise is that a YouTube video published Dec 26, 2025 somehow motivated a federal law enforcement action that commenced on Dec 4, 2025. Also, this claim conflates ICE with CBP. Also, per Wikipedia, out of thousands of arrests, only 23 have been of Somalis; and it's been abundantly clear in all the press functions that the targets have overwhelmingly been Hispanic — because they're overwhelmingly represented among illegal immigrants in the US, including in MN.

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> Your premise is that a YouTube video published Dec 26, 2025 somehow motivated a federal law enforcement action that commenced on Dec 4, 2025.

The surge of ~2,000 officers only happened around Jan 5-6, 2026. And this happened after the video in question was reposted by J.D. Vance and referenced by Kash Patel.

It's true that Operation Metro Surge as a whole started a month earlier. But, zooming out from that specific video, the operation was from the start motivated by the fraud scandal, according to reliable sources [1]. Official statements around this time of the later surge also referenced the fraud scandal [2]. Meanwhile, Trump delivered several speeches during this time complaining in racist terms about Somalis in general.

It's also true that the actual activity of Operation Metro Surge is mostly unrelated to the fraud. But that's the whole point! The administration seized on the fraud, and later seized on that specific video, as an excuse to send in ICE and CBP agents to do something completely different. As the parent said, this probably did not "make it more [..] likely that we'll be able to investigate and resolve the fraud situation in MN". Or if it did, it did so very inefficiently compared to other possible approaches such as getting the FBI to focus on it (which also happened). The surge did focus public attention on the issue, which might encourage local officials to resolve it. But it also massively poisoned the well. How much you want to talk about the fraud issue is now a proxy for how much you _don't_ want to talk about what liberals see as the much larger issue of abuses by ICE/CBP.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/02/us/politics/ice-somali-mi...

[2] https://x.com/KristiNoem/status/2005687345895645204

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