upvote
I contacted my bank, insisting that GrapheneOS is one of the most secure OS on the market and therefore should be supported if they actually care about users' security (it's actually far more secure than all the old, far less secure but Google-approved devices out there). They acknowledged an fixed their app, one of the most popular in France.

Still missing Android Pay but that's due to Android Pay being closed. I wish banks would do something and support NFC payment systems that don't require the device to be controlled by Google (how can we be okay with this?!)

reply
German bank Comdirect / Commerzbank did this as well, whitelisting GrapheneOS signing keys for their 2FA app. https://github.com/PrivSec-dev/banking-apps-compat-report/is...
reply
> I wish banks would do something and support NFC payment systems that don't require the device to be controlled by Google

There are countries where it's possible to pay everywhere with the banking app scanning a QR code. No need for NFC :-).

reply
The point of NFC-on-a-phone is that you don't need the damn banking apps and internet and retailer support for all that to validate a simple transaction. My credit card has NFC, no internet and no app, and it's universal.
reply
> you don't need the damn banking apps

You need the Google/Apple app though, don't you? Or can you write your own personal app that will handle that?

reply
There are several banks, especially over here in Europe, that have their own implementations of contactless payments, if that's what you mean. Here's a German article outlining this and mentioning a few examples: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/nfc-datenschutzfreundlich-bezahle...
reply
I use qr based payments regularly where I live, and in my home country I use nfc payments (watch/phone/card) essentially always, when we visit.

NFC is by far more convenient and reliable.

reply
I can't say about "convenient" because I don't use it, but I have been using QR codes for years and I haven't had a single issue. I don't know anyone who has.

QR codes are reliable.

reply
You need an active internet connection to pay via QR.

NFC (EMV) works offline.

reply
Got it, that's a good point! It's so much not an issue where I live that I hadn't realised :-). But it is an issue nonetheless.
reply
It's regularly unreliable here, because it's reliant on a bank app which in turn is reliant on an internet connection, and banks here are kind of shit.

It's pretty common here that people will be told they need to turn off an otherwise working Wifi connection when facing problems because bank apps will often just not work properly on wifi.

But as I said, even without that, the convenience level is ridiculously different. It's arguably quicker to open your wallet and use a debit card with an NFC chip than it is to use QR codes, before we even talk about the convenience of watch/phone payments using NFC.

reply
> It's regularly unreliable here, because it's reliant on a bank app which in turn is reliant on an internet connection

Got it, that's a fair point!

> But as I said, even without that, the convenience level is ridiculously different. It's arguably quicker to open your wallet and use a debit card with an NFC chip than it is to use QR codes

This part sounds like those people who use a different unit system than I do and explain to me how my unit system is objectively more inconvenient than theirs. To which I answer: "I think I know better than you what is more convenient for me, given that I use it everyday" :-).

I use QR codes instead of opening my wallet, which kind of hints towards the former being more convenient than the latter for me. And for the millions of people who also do that.

reply
Did you miss the part where I said I use both?

I'm not saying "yours" is less convenient. I'm saying the one you and I both use regularly is less convenient than anything NFC based, which I also use semi-regularly.

reply
I'm confused. You say:

> It's arguably quicker to open your wallet and use a debit card with an NFC chip than it is to use QR codes

So I assume that even though QR codes are available where you live, you use your debit card with an NFC chip because it is quicker than using QR codes...

Anyway, the important part is that NFC doesn't require an internet connection, and I had missed that. Now I wonder why a QR code couldn't work without an internet connection just the same. I'll have to look into that!

reply
> So I assume that even though QR codes are available where you live, you use your debit card with an NFC chip because it is quicker than using QR codes...

Yes, I generally use my card rather than than QR unless the shop doesn't take cards, doesn't have a paywave/etc-enabled card reader, the card reader is broken, the sales person doesn't know how to use it, or the sales person insists I give them my card and PIN to pay (none of those are hypotheticals, I've experienced all of those first hand, some of them quite repeatedly).

> Now I wonder why a QR code couldn't work without an internet connection just the same.

Because a QR code is just a short piece of information to tell your banking app who to send funds to - it's like putting a mailto: link on a website rather than asking people to re-type your email address to contact you.

reply
Oh right, of course the phone has to send information back to the terminal, which NFC does but not the QR code. Hence the internet connection.
reply
I’m interested which french bank is this?
reply
Play Integrity and APIs like it aren't about security, they are about anti-fraud/anti-scam.
reply
"Banking Applications Compatibility with GrapheneOS" https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...
reply
What about the small matter of having to purchase a Google phone in the first place?
reply
Most anti-google move: buy a second hand pixel, they receive no revenue on the device which is (assumed) already highly subsidized by google so that they can profit off users' data, then you use their subsidized hardware without running their spyware OS. Google only loses money in this scenario, it is a great protest.
reply
Have you seen those prices? I don't think the devices need subsidising at all. How else could competitors, who aren't selling off your data, offer it for cheaper?
reply
competitors also sell off your data, via uninstallable google spyware in most cases!
reply
I see it as a necessity, because the Google phone is the only one worth it if you care about security.

The problem is not GrapheneOS, but rather that phone manufacturers other than Google don't care. Now if there were millions of GrapheneOS users, it would start becoming interesting for other phone manufacturers to care.

My point being that I buy Pixel in order to give more weight to GrapheneOS, in the hope that other manufacturers will eventually realise that.

reply
Besides the already mentioned point of getting one refurbished, Pixels tend to get really cheap towards the end of the yearly cycle. At that point, they were mostly going to make money from you using their ecosystem and then you are sticking it to them by installing GrapheneOS :p (probably they don't care).

E.g. a new Pixel 9a is currently 369 Euro in The Netherlands and 367 Euro in Germany. The Pixel 10a will be released soon, but the 9a will run GrapheneOS just fine (same SoC except modem as the vanilla 9).

reply
Google makes high quality hardware and untrustworthy software. Graphene's approach is to take the hardware and leave the software.
reply
Yup, also Google Pay doesn't work, though there are other providers which work fine (Curve Pay I think works in all of EU), but it just made me carry my wallet everywhere and I understood I don't mind that at all.
reply
Since all of comments are about NFC payments, this should be higher. Can confirm Curve Pay works (pixel 9a) at least with one Greek bank and Revilut. Not affiliated in any way with them and don't know this service is actually works just Yeah I'm amazed too.
reply
I still have my Apple Watch configured, so I'm just doing the NFC payments with that :).
reply
Author is installing Google Play Services it seems, wouldn't that work around this?

In any case, for me this also sort of defeats the purpose: I'd rather break free from Google and Apple, not just (stock) Android and iOS.

reply
No, because most banking apps call upon the Google Play Integrity API, which GrapheneOS doesn't (or can't?) use. There's a decent list kicking around of which ones work (Monzo, for instance).

https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...

reply
> this also sort of defeats the purpose

Not really. On GrapheneOS, the Play Services/Play Store run as sandboxed apps, i.e. they are not system apps like on Android. They just run like a normal, unprivileged app. That's a lot better than on Android.

> I'd rather break free from Google and Apple, not just (stock) Android and iOS

If you want to break free, you don't have to install the Play Services / Play Store on GrapheneOS, just like you don't have to install microG on LineageOS. There is a misconception that microG is better than sandboxed Play, but I disagree. With microG, your apps still connect to the Google servers, so you're not "breaking free".

reply
With microG, your apps still connect to the Google servers, so you're not "breaking free".

Moreover, some OSes (e.g. /e/OS) give certain Google apps higher privileges than other apps even with microG, install Android Auto and it's still game over. GrapheneOS does not have this issue because as you say, Google apps/services get sandboxed.

Obligatory link: https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm

reply
Does anyone know if HSBC's UK app works on it? I've seen inconsistent reports that it does and doesn't.

Edit: ignore this - there's a list elsewhere in this thread!

reply
Of course that is highly depdendet on the bank used, but so far none of my banking apps didn't work!

If you are using a rather popular banking app, chances are high that it has been discussed in the GrapheneOS forum.

Anyway, with google play services installed, mine have worked out of the box.

reply
yep - tried GrapheneOS for the first time today and my banking app detected that the phone was jailbroken.
reply
Did you relock the bootloader and disable OEM unlocking as part of the GrapheneOS onboarding?
reply