But for some reason the Western world only sees the evil things Hamas does and handwaves IDF.
They're both evil.
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpqwv9vvzx9o
Though I suppose you could say he's lying, it's staged etc. In the same way that the religious attribute every good thing to their god and every bad thing to their devil.
- Dutch
Or perhaps there's still worse things we cannot imagine? With these people, one can never be too sure.
There have been many arguments that the US' support of Israel goes against US interests [2], but that really makes no sense. It's not just Trump who has to be convinced to start a war for Israel, it's the entire defense establishment in the US.
And also in Israel. If fighting half a dozen wars all at once was really that bad for Israel, surely, someone would have put a stop in it.
Surely.
_____________
[1] Got that term from J. Mearsheimer, if you were wondering.
[2] Particularly the Tucker Carlson - Judge Napolitano - Col. Daniel Davies continuum of mostly conservative podcast hosts. Or those are the ones I follow closely anyway. They're all convinced it's all "because of the lobby".
This feels a lot like the people building a home next to an airport and then complaining about the noise.
Besides, are you sure "your house" wasn't stolen from someone? That's hardly uncommon in Israel.
Why should anyone be opposed to you living in Russia?
Anyway your argument is bad in multiple layers, I don’t have any other passport and I live in a home that is younger than 80 years as most Israelis do
You don't need one, it is very easy to emigrate to many western countries as an Israeli passport holder. There's also a chance you qualify for one of the EU citizenship schemes for jewish descendants. You don't have to choose to live in an apartheid state.
At least if you only held a Russian passport you could plausibly claim that it's somewhat difficult to move anywhere nice.
> I live in a home that is younger than 80 years as most Israelis do
I guess that makes it better. Truly, a shining example of Israeli moral superiority.
I can easily find ownership records going back more than 500 years for the land I live on. Odds are it'd be trivial to go even further.
What about the land you live on? Who owned it 100 years ago and how'd it end up in your possession? How do you think those records would tend to look in Israel? What kind of stories do you think they would tell? Would it be a good look for Israeli people?
There's hardly anything comparable in Europe.
Probably other groups who are even less visible, so we don't know about the challenges they face. The 19th century push for nation states has marginalized and tried to erase many groups.
Some of us learned to be better.
I think we might live on different planets.
What are you implying? It's totally fine to defend yourself against aggressors.
The problem is that in the Israel-Palestine conflict, Israel has always been the aggressor.
I won’t leave my friends and family and rather fight for the values of this country from here
The nazis justified the holocaust as a "defense of their values" as well.
here's some quotes. please tell me, hitler or gvir
"We have to speak honestly. That there are many, many ___ – I didn't say all the ___, but a lot of __ who are not loyal to the ____. Undoubtedly, their vote is endangering ____, … Any normal country would not let them vote. Unfortunately, we are allowing hundreds of thousands of people who are disloyal to ____ to vote in the elections... "
"I am unequivocally against executing the ____ murderer of ____ and in favor of killing the ____ murderers of _____"
"There are many ____ who are disloyal and those who are not loyal should not be here.""
I hope this particularly weak whataboutism helps you feel better about your indefensible moral position.
> fight for the values of this country from here
Apartheid being one of the core values worth fighting for, apparently.
I cut my salary to be involved politically, I believe in a future of peace. You can rest assured I engage in what’s right far more than you
What does that look like to you?
I'm sure Hamas would say the same, it's just about how that peace is reached and how it looks like in the end. The typical Israeli vision of peace isn't any better than the typical Palestinian vision of peace.
My moral compass says the following - 1. First of all securing our own democracy from all the internal authoritarian movements 2. Creating a situation were any Palestinian can live respectfully, feed their family and get education
From there state decision should be far more easier.
perfectly reasonable ask. 3 years ago, I would have been perfectly fine if they demonstrated interest in that. Instead we have people like Ben gvir openly spout ethnosupremacist vitriol that would make hitler blush. Now my instagram is full of that man touring prisons where he brags about executing people who clearly show signs of torture. (and this is what they are COMFORTABLE SHOWING) between that and his approval ratings (60% of israelis want to relocate Palestinians somewhere else Its clear that the whole society is rotten from the top down.
frankly, I just want this madness to end.
Is that possible? Especially given the birth rate differences between the genuine religious nutjobs and normal people?
Peace for Israelis is coexistence. Look at egypt or Jordan for reference.
It's not really about coexistence, is it? Rather than existing together, it's at best about existing separately.
>Peace for Hamas is eradicating all the Jews.
Which is a perfectly natural position considering the historic relationship here.
Second, are you suggesting to annex Gaza and th West Bank, and giving them citizenship? That means the come election, Hamas would be the biggest party in the Knesset, revoke all democratic rights, and create a sharia state. That will be the end of the only democracy in the Middle East.
I don't know. Why did the Cossacks oppose Jews living in Russia?
Nobody living would care anymore, I guess.
> Nobody living would care anymore, I guess.
You might want to brush up on HN's guidelines if you think that these comments are acceptable here:
Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents. Omit internet tropes.
Given the quote from Jason:
> This works so much better when there are living people who care.
What's the strongest interpretation of this given the context?
There's two ways to make this a reality:
1) Stop them caring
2) Stop them living
Given that the international community has been pushing hard for nearly a century for option 1; I'm guessing Jason means option 2.
Your accusation was way off-base and deliberately offensive. You are capable of making the same point without stooping down the hierarchy of disagreement, so do it.
The only reason it still exists is because of a massive propaganda machine designed to misrepresent the whole situation to the American people who's tax dollars are bankrolling it.
That said, I support jews who were there before 1950s and the ones who are actually willing to make peace with palestinans and live alongside without an apartheid ethnostate. They are welcome to live in Israel and I wish them peace.
The rest of you who are defending or taking part in this genocide should absolutely be exiled.
that answer your question?
Jews maintained their tradition and lineage for 2 thousand years. So much so that you can identify European Jewish heritage with a DNA test.
Second, half of the Israeli Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arabic and Muslim countries.
And thank you for having the 1950 cutoff, since my family came to Israel before that.
And they should rightly blame European Jews for inciting this.
That this would happen as a response to the actions European Jews were taking in Palestine was completely predictable, but they didn't really care.
And the solution to that was to create an apartheid state where you forced palestinians to live as second class citizens in their ancestral home?
Last I checked, there are plenty of jews in morocco and Iran. I've met a few.
> And thank you for having the 1950 cutoff, since my family came to Israel before that.
Glad that you found a loophole that lets you defend literal genocide while clinging to your land claim as if that was the part I had a major problem with. you certainly got me there.
Plenty Moroccan Jews in Morocco - 300,000 in 1950, 2,250 in 2026.
Iran - 150,000 in 1950, 15,000 in 2026.
If you agree that 90% leaving is not ethnic cleansing, than say the same for Palestinians.
Given a choice between saying you don't support the genocide of the palestinian people and being there before the 1950's, you chose the later. you do understand how that makes you look right? like I'm shocked at your lack of self awareness here.
You are perfectly welcome to be a racist piece of shit. its your right I guess. but don't turn around and act like you're the victim when everyone hates you.
> Plenty Moroccan Jews in Morocco - 300,000 in 1950, 2,250 in 2026.
> Iran - 150,000 in 1950, 15,000 in 2026.
Its definitely ethnic cleansing and it shouldn't have happened either. I wish we stood up to stop it back then. I didn't say anything about it back then because I wasn't alive back then to speak out against it. I'm alive now and THIS genocide that your people are committing is what I'm speaking out against because Im against genocide. I know there are other genocides going around in the world but this one is being funded with MY tax dollars.
I don’t see you calling all Muslim and European countries to return all stolen land and assets to Jews, and promising them full rights.
So for Palestinians - we have to fix whats been done.
For Jews - its history and we can’t fix it.
You can just leave, you have a decent passport and can easily move to Europe where you don't have to worry about Iranian missiles.
Second, Israel tried to negotiate with countries to move willing gazans, but most countries refused. And everyone called it ethnic cleansing.
Creating a totally new definition for refugees which can be inheritable - not self victimizing?
I suspect a fourth column.
Seriously, I'm constantly amazed by how oblivious some Americans are. You got it all backwards.