upvote
> The problem here isn't one party or one persident, it's America's commitment to imperialism, of which Iran is just one aspect.

Iran is as imperialistic if not more. Why you are against US "imperialism" but for Islamic Republic's one?

reply
The current Iranian regime is in power thanks to US imperial interests. Comical amount of ignorance.
reply
Does it make Iran less imperialist because of that?
reply
Its the irony that US imperialism is the cause for this iranian "imperialistic" regime.
reply
Resisting the imperialist goals of the US itx proxies doesn't make you imperialist. It's not only moral. It's generaly permissible under international law.

Take for example the UAE, which has been hit by the Iranian response, who is essentially singlehandedly responsible for the genocide in South Sudan and it does so with the blessing of the US.

The UAE arms the RSF using arms they get from the US and steal Sudanese gold, which they launder through Dubai and Switzerland.

But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that everything Iran has done and is doing is "imperialism" (which, again, it is not), how do you even begin to argue "if not more [than the United States]"? US imperialism touches virtually every country on Earth. Iran at best has regional influence.

reply
> It's generaly permissible under international law.

This is false, and you know it. But I will challenge you for others to see. Please point me to a statue of the international law that makes this "resistance" legal.

> Take for example the UAE, which has been hit by the Iranian response, who is essentially singlehandedly responsible for the genocide in South Sudan and it does so with the blessing of the US.

Interesting. You completely ignored that Saudis back the other side (SAF), which committed no fewer atrocities than RSF and co. Why do you single out UAE?

> The UAE arms the RSF using arms they get from the US and steal Sudanese gold, which they launder through Dubai and Switzerland.

I won't argue with that, but this is not the complete picture, and the two main warring sides in Sudan are supported by US-friendly regimes in the region.

> But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that everything Iran has done and is doing is "imperialism" (which, again, it is not), how do you even begin to argue "if not more [than the United States]"? US imperialism touches virtually every country on Earth. Iran at best has regional influence.

Two things:

1. Does the fact that IR's imperialism is regional, and anti-US, and not global makes it good?

2. It is imperialism -- IR through its militant proxies suppresses independent development of multiple states in the region. Can you explain to me how this is a good thing?

reply
> This is false, and you know it. But I will challenge you for others to see

Sorry but it's 100% true [1][2][3]. REsisting foreign occupation and colonialism is well-recognized in several UN conventions.

> Interesting. You completely ignored that Saudis back the other side (SAF),

You mean the saudis back the actual government of South Sudan and not the rebels who are looting the country? Are you really trying to equate the two?

But let's, for the sake of argument, also condemn the Saudis in this case. This should convince you that the US only cares about selling arms and doesn't give a rats ass about genocide. That's my point.

> Does the fact that IR's imperialism is regional, and anti-US, and not global makes it good?

No, it makes it lesser. "If not more" was your quote. Definitionally, it's not. It's Middle East vs the entire globe.

> It is imperialism

It's resistance. Iran up until 1953 was a liberal democracy and the only reason it isn't is because of US interference, imperialism and adventurism.

> Can you explain to me how this is a good thing?

Resisting the imperial ambitions of a global hegemonic superpower is definitionally good.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_resist

[2]: https://www.un.org/dppa/decolonization/en/about

[3]: https://treaties.un.org/doc/source/docs/A_RES_2625-Eng.pdf

reply
> Sorry but it's 100% true [1][2][3]. REsisting foreign occupation and colonialism is well-recognized in several UN conventions.

Colonization and occupation is not the same as "imperialism". Please show me where "imperialism" is regulated by the international law. Second, resistance still has to comply with international laws. So, blowing up a bus with kids going to school is not resistance, but terrorism.

> You mean the saudis back the actual government of South Sudan

The government of South Sudan committed atrocities of the same scope as the RSF! Are you letting it slide because SAF is official government of Sudan??

> No, it makes it lesser. "If not more" was your quote. Definitionally, it's not. It's Middle East vs the entire globe.

I would argue it is more.

> It's resistance. Iran up until 1953 was a liberal democracy and the only reason it isn't is because of US interference, imperialism and adventurism. > Resisting the imperial ambitions of a global hegemonic superpower is definitionally good.

I see now. As long as it opposes US, it does not matter who are the victims of the opposition because the opposition is against the US.

reply
I’m not sure what would have happened under a Dem administration. I’m not sure I’m against action in Iran.

But one the whole like precedents of the Trump Administration, was that we were going to ignore foreign entanglements, even if they could be perceived as being in our interests.

It’s wild to me how much Trump seems like Bush 2.0 when I think Trump was something of a reaction to Bush 1.0.

reply
"I’m not sure what would have happened under a Dem administration."

Hard to say. Under Obama we got the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action.

reply
It is amazing that anyone took his campaign claims at face value. There's an extensive record of him just saying whatever gets cheers/votes/money.
reply
The dirty little secret here is that the Democratic establishment and thus many Democratic politicians like what's happening. They just don't like how it's being done.

What's they're doing is both bad policy (IMHO) and bad politics. Why is it bad politics? Because this military action is deeply unpopular and you cannot outflank the Republican Party on the right about American imperialism. Remember when Kamala Harris promised the "most lethal" military? What does that mean? And why?

But hte other reason this is bad politics is for the reason you state: it cedes the political ground of being the "peace president" to Trump. Memories are short because he did exactly the same thing in 2015 eg [1][2] and again in 2020 eg [3]. The last one is particularly funny because Biden did exactly what Trump promised to do but the Trump still beat Biden over the head for it.

There's no consistency in any of this. Trump was never a peace president. We knew it was a lie at the time. We know it's a lie now. Nobody cares.

But when the supposed opposition party mirrors his policy positions and offers no resistance to anything that's happening, who are voters going to listen to? The guy who talks about peace, even though he's lying, or the guy who says nothing about peace and just thinks Trump should've consulted with Congress but nothing otherwise should change? Or, worse, sometimes Trump isn't being tough enough?

Then Senator Joe Biden in 1986 called Israel "the best $3 billion we make" and if Israel didn't exist we'd invent on to protect our interests [4] while Ronald Reagan's Secretary of State called Israel an unsinkable aircraft carrier in the region.

The JCPOA was a rare W for Obama (who was otherwise the Deporter-in-Chief and the Drone King). Trump of course dismantled it at the behest of the Adelsons. Did Biden reinstate it? Of course not.

The best case for an establishment Democratic administration now is to do nothing while promising nothing and reversing nothing that ultimately brings in the next Trump, just as Biden/Harris did in 2024.

That's the long version of why I say there's no difference. In the short term there might be. Even that's debatable of course. But long term the ratchet effect only gets worse.

[1]: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/donald-...

[2]: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/13/donald-trump...

[3]: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/08/donald-trump...

[4]: https://www.c-span.org/clip/senate-highlight/user-clip-joe-b...

reply
What planet do you live on that you think it’s a secret? It’s bright as day. It’s why I support the Democratic Party. Of course they support this action, it’s probably the right thing to do.(Though you’re right I don’t Trust Hegseth to do this right. He’s like Hubris walking and at least one report said the didn’t have the support of the generals)

One of the reasons I didn’t support Trump because he was the America First non-interventionist. I’m lamenting the fact that Trump’s supporters who were betrayed. It’s Trump who’s the one who did nothing and will bring in more Democrats, or the other way around.

reply
Trump has been publicly mulling over an attack on Iran for several weeks. It’s been headline news everywhere.

I did not not notice any opinions, one way or the other, from other American politicians. Correct me if I’m wrong ( with link, of course. )

reply
I guess we can laud Rep. Jim McGovern [1].

[1] https://archive.is/LvDf2

reply
Thank you for that, I hadn’t seen it.
reply
So much of both parties is actually alike, underneath a window dressing of differences (eg woke/anti woke), and a complicit media which does its best to amplify and brainwash people into believing. When it comes to policies that actually affect the elites, the deep state military industrial complex/intelligence services or financial interests, it is a uniparty. Look at how Obama continued the war on terror for example, after running on “hope and change”.
reply
I am curious what your plan would be for Obama to extricate us from the GWOT and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.
reply
Several military leaders expressed surprise at how gung-ho Obama was with foreign policy regarding the gwot. He literally executed an American citizen via drone. He didn’t even pay lip service to hope and change. Dubya also ran on a non-interventionist platform, and Trump ran on “drain the swap” and non-interventionism as well.

Anyway this is missing the wood for the trees. The point is, the uniparty very much exists, despite the downvotes. Foreign policy, bailing out banks, bowing down to the military industrial complex are very much remarkably consistent uniparty positions.

reply
I am curious what your plan would be for Obama to extricate us from the GWOT and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.
reply
How about just bailing and having people falling of planes? Why would there need to be a good way to "extricate" from a ludicrous mess?
reply
Without a doubt it's a "least worst" scenario. The best solution is to not empower the people who got us there. A distant second is to not give them back control eight years later.

I'm still interested to hear of a better c.2009 peace plan.

reply