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Man I got a computer engineering degree in 2015 with a $200 Chromebook chrooted into Debian. And I worked professionally for years on an 8gb MacBook Air. The Neo is definitely something younger me would be interested in.
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Did the same for my freshman year of Uni on a $99 Chromebook. Java and C dev on 4GB of ram wasn't an issue.

That said, I quickly upgraded to a 4 year used Thinkpad and that was a huge difference.

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C dev wasn't an issue back in the 1 GB or 256 MB or 16 MB days either. You just didn't use to have a Chrome tab open that by itself is eating 345 MB just to show a simple tutorial page.
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C dev wasn't a problem with MSDOS and 640K either. With CP/M and 64K it was a challenge I think. Struggling to remember the details on that and too lazy to research it right now.
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The problem is like all Apple stuff it's just needlessly limiting and has few advantages over alternatives.
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> $200 Chromebook chrooted into Debian

Are there even any x86 Chromebooks left at that price point? They are only one that are still capable of chrooting into Linux. ARM Chromebooks remain locked up.

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Looking at BestBuy, category chromebook, the first one that comes up is $150, intel n4500.

I don't know if this is particularly current or what, or if it's easy to setup to run another OS or whatever, but it meets your price and architecture criteria.

https://www.bestbuy.com/product/hp-14-chromebook-intel-celer...

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ARM chromebooks run the Debian containers just fine. It's just at settings toggle to enable it and you don't even need dev mode.
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There were a bunch of intel atom ones IIRC. I got my degree with a used EEEpc with one of those.
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As did I. The most unbelievable part is that we used that tiny keyboard.
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EEEPc ? Oh, I used to dream of having an EEEPc ... I got my degree using old C64 - had to manually encrypt packets with pen and paper to use https.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k

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I mean, never mind younger us. I have a M5 MBP and even I am tempted for a Neo for travelling
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There is truly no space in my device repertoire for a Neo and I can say that with confidence because of how much time I've spent trying to find one.
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"Finding Neo"
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I went through a two-year period where I didn't have a decent job and couldn't afford a computer of any kind for myself. I ended up spending some time volunteering for a local non-profit, and they gave me an "old laptop" they had in storage. This was in ~2005.

It was a Sony Vaio, and the only thing I really remember about the hardware/specs is that it had a physical scroll widget under the touchpad on the edge of the case. Software-wise, it was running some relatively locked down version of Windows. I installed Arch on it and used it to rebuild and manage the non-profit's website.

The other thing that I remember from it is that it was my entrance into using the terminal as my primary interface - the first place I used Vim regularly, and the first time I'd installed tmux. One day I was trying to test a dropdown or something on their website, and discovered that my touchpad didn't work. It turned out to have been broken by an Arch update, which wasn't terribly surprising. What was surprising is that once I'd traced down the issue and corrected it, I realized that it had been broken for almost two weeks. I'd used that computer every day and hadn't needed to use a mouse even once.

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When my mates at school had the aero glass effect on the new Windows, my ancient hand-me-down laptop wouldn't even try to run it. It could however run Compiz somewhat if it was persuaded very hard!

That's basically the reason I learned Linux initially, and those hours debugging video driver issues would serve me well later on.

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When Chromebooks originally came out, that was not an option. And almost all school-issued computers will not let you do this.
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I've owned and used the CR-48 prototype Chromebook model, which very well did have a developer mode and a third kernel option built right in. Ran Ubuntu on it with no issues. This has been possible since before the device family was officially available for purchase.

The school thing is different, but also hardly unique. A school issued macbook is often similarly locked down and unusable as a dev machine, due to the student lacking permissions to install anything the school deems dangerous.

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It was possible on the Acer model I got when it first came out, but it was still useless. A switch that wiped the whole thing back to defaults was needed to open a terminal and from there a shell script could install Ubuntu. It still ran the unmodifiable chromeos kernel with no updates and without some of the modules I'd like. And then the screen died.

It was junk. The EeePC was cheaper, lasted much longer and had Debian out of the box.

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That includes school-issued Macs, so I don't see how that's an argument against Chromebooks.
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Author of the post here. You nailed it here; I used Chromebook as the example in my post since the one I used in high school was locked down to basically a kiosk. Couldn’t even open dev tools, much less root it. Such a wild departure from the eMacs I used in my elementary school’s library where I could set bonkers `defaults write` commands and customize every aspect of my account.

If I got a Chromebook as a personal machine as a kid, I probably would’ve rooted it and see what I could do, but growing up, the beauty of the Mac (in that Snow Leopard era) was progressive disclosure. I could start on the happy path and have a perfectly stable machine, then customize the behaviors through the terminal, see what it does, mess with the system files, see what breaks, revert it, then go back to using iMovie like normal.

In my (admittedly limited) time using a rooted Chromebook, it’s much more like a switch flip. You go from mandatory water wings directly into getting pushed into the ocean and Google shouting “Good luck!!”

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Yeah, very little of this is still true of the period in which the Neo or modern Chromebooks exist.

If the school is managing these Macs, including laptops sent home with a student, then unless it's for a specific purpose they aren't allowing you modify files, you probably aren't allowed to open a terminal or system settings, and you definitely aren't disabling SIP. You might not even be able to access the open internet if they've hard-configured it into a VPN. No different from a managed Chromebook.

Likewise, even older and lower-end unmanaged Chromebooks can enable a full Linux environment that runs a terminal in a browser tab. Doing so doesn't require root or developer mode, and it doesn't change or sacrifice any of the rest of the ChromeOS environment (for which your core assertion, that an unmanaged Mac is a computer and an unmanaged Chromebook is a thin-client appliance, still fundamentally holds). You can install Blender and have it running in a window by about 1 minute into watching a YouTube video titled "How To Download Or Update ANY VERSION Of Blender On Chromebook".

Gaining root on a Chromebook is mostly just a prerequisite to modifying things specific to ChromeOS, but the easier to access, more featureful, and safer LDE is still an entire operating system that you can tinker with, screw up, overload, blow up, and reset to zero, all without losing the happy path of opening up Canva (or, more likely, CapCut on their phone/iPad) and editing videos or whatever.

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You don't have to root them to do cool shit anymore. They have a full Linux (Debian based) environment you can enable with a single toggle in the settings. Any GUI apps you install via apt get their icons dropped in the system tray and their windows are rendered via Wayland.
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>the one I used in high school was locked down to basically a kiosk.

The Macbook Neo will be no different if the school is actually managing them properly.

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macOS or Windows can be similarly locked down. In the schools, the school locks it down. In many companies, there are management tools like JAMF, InTune, or NinjaOne that lock down laptops, desktops, tablets, and cell phones a little or completely.
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A kid looking for the best bang for the carefully saved buck would buy a used machine off eBay, for less than $599, and more capable. An M1 MBP 2021 with 16GB would cost about this much; an M1 Macbook Air, or an M1 Mac Mini with 16 GB would cost half as much. A ton of beefy, perfectly Linux-ready used laptops can be had for under $350.

So this is only for the kids who are obsessed not just with computers, but brand-new computers. Which is a different demographic.

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It's also for parents who want to give their kids a "real computer" without breaking the bank.

My 12-year-old wanted a laptop to build mods for games. I got her a new M1 Macbook 8GB - $425 from Walmart, refurbished.

My 17-year-old wanted a laptop for college, but wasn't sure what she needed or wanted yet. I gave her my 2020 M1 MBP.

If either of those situations arose today, I'd get them a Neo.

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> The Macbook Neo is an awesome machine for it's cost/value

Uh... if you need to compile for iOS, sure.

But outside of that, no its not.

You are literally just paying the Apple tax that they deliberately choose.

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Look, MacOS has certainly rotted over the past few years, but the primary reason I use it is because it's still a hundred times nicer to use than Windows (which is also regressing for worse reasons - shoving in AI and ads instead of benign neglect).

It's still the best desktop UNIX experience, especially since cheap PC laptops (and until very recently expensive ones) almost always have horrible build quality. It's also within only the last few years that PC trackpads came anywhere near the trackpads on Apple machines. Sometimes what you call a "tax" is literally some of us wanting quality.

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macOS is the best desktop UNIX for one simple reason: the ⌘ key. The fact that 99% of your GUI keybindings use a key that your CLI tooling cannot use eliminates conflicts and means that you don't have to remember things like "Copy is ^C in Chrome but ^⇧C in the terminal".
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using a linux with toshy to get the best of both worlds wrt keybindings. linux and kde is amazing nowadays... I don't miss macos but would be hating linux without mac style keybindings.
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Yeah, I use Kinto (which seems to be what Toshy is originally based on). A recent Ubuntu update broke it though, and I accidentally deleted my config file while trying to fix it, so maybe now's a good time to try out Toshy. Looks like Toshy creates a python virtualenv instead of relying on system packages, which should make it a little more resilient to system package changes.
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Oh man, you NEED to use Fedora.

Fedora is the best OS humanity has ever made. No exaguration. There needs to be the best, and its Fedora.

Linux gets a bad reputation because 20-ish years ago Ubuntu sent out free CDs and became the dominant OS. Ubuntu/Mint is part of Debian family, outdated linux. They call outdated Linux 'stable', but its not stable like a table. Its software version frozen. Bugs that are fixed today wont get those fixes for 2 years. Not to mention, a new mouse you buy from amazon/nvidia card/web video player wont work due to the outdated nature of these distros. (And yes, I know you can do surgery to update it, but no one likes that)

Fedora is not Arch. Fedora is the consumer grade Red Hat.

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> Linux gets a bad reputation because 20-ish years ago Ubuntu sent out free CDs and became the dominant OS.

I've been an Ubuntu user for 20 years, and RedHat and Suse prior to that. Ubuntu just worked. Debian had packages for everything, including from 3rd party vendors. It lets me focus on my work, and not worry about the OS, or compiling packages, or finding installers. When I had issues (rare), the large user base meant that someone had already figured out a solution to the problem.

The flavor of Linux doesn't matter so much in my opinion.

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Debian stable isn’t that much more version locked than CentOS or RHEL. Debian also has the Testing tier, which is semi-rolling. Or you could use Unstable. Or if you’re brave, you could use Nightly.

Ubuntu, Mint, PopOS, and others with Debian as an upstream are not Debian. They build their own packages on their own schedules.

Fedora is not “consumer grade RedHat”. It’s the rolling release upstream of RHEL, much like Debian Testing is upstream of Debian Stable.

The main reason Linux got a bad reputation was the tribalism of people going off half-cocked talking about their personal preferences without actually working with the alternatives and starting this sort of holy war diatribe.

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i've made my entire career digging deep into linux - i've been what some people would call a "power user" for about 25 years, and a professional for 15. i spent over a decade distrohopping, tweaking, tinkering and customizing every distro from Corel to Mandrake to Mandriva to Debian to Slackware to Ubuntu to Gentoo to Arch to Void, and everything in between, plus the BSDs. i've been a sysadmin, network admin, devops engineer, yadda yadda yadda.

i have never once successfully installed fedora. probably just hardware stuff, but as often as i've wanted to try it and opensuse, they have never booted post-install for me. on machines i've successfully installed Debian and openBSD. go figure. i know i'm an outlier here. maybe it's just bad luck.

but reading your post, it sounds like a club i don't want to be a part of. linux is linux. distros don't matter. you can get nearly anything to work if you spend enough time on it. GUI OS installers that fail are not worth my time.

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Fedora Silverblue it's better and Cosmic Desktop looks good for a DE in every release (upcoming 44). For some isolated and rollbackable option, your only options are Silverblue and Guix for the hard way. If you use Nonguix for Guix, on your own, but I'd only use a nonfree kernel in an emergency (the wireless adapter somehow gets broken and the alternative is to boot the OS with propietary fw in order to buy a new one). And in that case I would blacklist every propietary fw except for the wireless ones.

And, yes, I have an overlaid Linux-Libre kernel in SilverBlue.

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Glad to see someone else care so much about software freedom. Guix is great (though my ideal system would be debian with a shepherd init, fhs, and guix for non-root package management)
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> For some isolated and rollbackable option, your only options are Silverblue and Guix for the hard way.

How about Qubes OS? Also the parent never said anything about isolation and roll-backs. Nobody mentioned Silverblue except you. The discussion is about ordinary users, not hackers.

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Silverblue is supposed to be for normies. Rollbacks are for when you screw everything up.

But honestly I did not like Silverblue. I had a 13 year old gaming computer I installed it on and I couldnt get the ancient GPU drivers installed due to the way things are containerized. This would have been a few commands otherwise.

Maybe its fine for chromebook-like things. I might have picked a bad testcase.

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Given the list of alternatives you provided I’m inclined to disagree with you.
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I'm developing on a $270 refurbished Dell, which has an i7 and 16 gigs of RAM. The Apple processor might be competitive, but the rest of the machine is not. 600 dollars is fine and not unreasonable, but there is certainly an Apple tax.
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> You are literally just paying the Apple tax that they deliberately choose

And when I go to the grocery store, I am paying the Safeway tax that they deliberately choose, and when I go to the gas station I am paying the Exxon tax that they deliberately choose, and so on.

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What amount of that 600$ cost do you reckon is the Apple tax? I'm curious what comparables you see, and how much they cost.
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