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I agree. The super rich have been in "prepper" mode for a long time now

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/sep/04/super-rich-prep...

> They started out innocuously and predictably enough. Bitcoin or ethereum? Virtual reality or augmented reality? Who will get quantum computing first, China or Google? Eventually, they edged into their real topic of concern: New Zealand or Alaska? Which region would be less affected by the coming climate crisis? It only got worse from there. Which was the greater threat: global warming or biological warfare? How long should one plan to be able to survive with no outside help? Should a shelter have its own air supply? What was the likelihood of groundwater contamination? Finally, the CEO of a brokerage house explained that he had nearly completed building his own underground bunker system, and asked: “How do I maintain authority over my security force after the event?” The event. That was their euphemism for the environmental collapse, social unrest, nuclear explosion, solar storm, unstoppable virus, or malicious computer hack that takes everything down.

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As a statist, I personally always found it as a fascinating way to look at the future. They are actively preparing for a collapse they themselves are ushering.
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It's increasingly a pet theory of mine that the uncontrolled concentration of wealth into the hands of the richest, their subsequent existential ennui, and their disconnect from reality owing to media consolidation and algorithmic content feeds have basically created a world where the superrich are in a "post-game" mentality. There are no further material comforts to obtain. They just want to feel anything at all and the only way to do that is by bringing about the end of the world.
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Damn! I just nuked a long conversation with ChatGPT outlining my pet theory that with changes in scale of energy regimes (labor->wind/water->coal->oil->solar) we get an excess energetic capacity that means our entertainment systems can't handle! That excess spills out as elite political retrenchment, entertainment jealousy, and (finally) violence, expanded civil rights, and a new entertainment regime.

Mostly tongue in cheek... but the whole thing hangs together.

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Impressive thought. It could also be a built-in mechanism by nature to reshuffle the cards.
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Sounds like Fallout
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Exactly: The 0.01% Elite bleeding out the planet and their biggest worries are: 1. How do I keep my doomsday bunker servants in line? 2. Or is a ticket to Mars the better option?
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Mars isn't a good option due to lack of magnetosphere.

Personally if you want to propagate life by shooting containers of RNA at different extraterrestrial plants.

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> due to lack of magnetosphere

Well, it's certainly one of the concerns there. After the lack of an atmosphere, biosphere, usable water...

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Low gravity is another at only 0.39 Earth gravity.
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I recently saw “Mountainhead”. Apropos.
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Had to look it up. Added to the list.
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> super rich have been in "prepper" mode for a long time now

For every prepper in the $100+ million class, I know a hundred who are not. They’re enjoying their lives or working to make more money.

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I second this. Prepping is far more popular among the middle and lower class people I know than the upper classes. Some mainstream religions even encourage prepping.

The perception that rich people are preppers comes from the string of stories about a few rich people prepping in New Zealand a few years ago. You can tell who gets their worldview from headlines when rich people are described as “they” who all act in unison and do this one thing that was in news headlines recently.

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A hundred more preppers who aren't $100+ millionaires? Or a hundred more $100+ millionaires who aren't preppers?
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> Or a hundred more $100+ millionaires who aren't preppers?

This.

I live in Wyoming and frequent the Bay Area, New York and some places in Europe and India. The rich preppers are rare. (And mostly techies or oil men.) It’s mostly a middle-class pursuit, the singler and older and maler the person, the more likely they own clothing in camo. If they’ve spent any time in a military or intelligence service, their “prepping” is basic emergency preparedness, not bunker lunacy. (Though one retired special ops guy who started military contracting kept a map of the bunkers. I think as a joke. The saying being a well-stocked bunker owned by an asshole is a good target for a group of guys with guns.)

At the end of the day, the rich preppers build bunkers because it gives them something interesting to talk about. That group is mostly chasing that high.

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(Joke) I thought it was obvious that it was referring to 100 people who are preppers who are not $100+ millionaires, but I looked at the profile of the GP and wasn't so sure.

> karma: 178634

> about: Ski. Fly. Growth equity VC.

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Yeah I think it might be the other way.
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I'm not sure a billionaire building a bunker is much different from you or me buying fire insurance. It's not that I expect my house to burn down, and it certainly won't prevent me doing everything I can to prevent fires. Even with it, my house burning down would be really bad. But I can afford the insurance, so why not have what protection I can?
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The very plot of rainbow 6, a 1998 Tom Clancy novel, except the preppers are actually helping the catastrophes along.

And, if I’m not misremembering, of Silo as well.

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Helping the catastrophes along is Fallout.
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They're trying to thread the needle of a collapse bad enough that they'll retreat to their bunkers, but not so bad that their bodyguards will turn on them for their gold. Let's see how it works out!
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The smart play is goats (for meat and milk), ammo, and maybe some silver if you want some ready "cash". You can barter the meat/milk, and even the ammo (but it has other uses).
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I really do wonder whether, should push come to shove, a Peter Thiel will really be better served in a small country like New Zealand that doesn't have many pushers & shovers at which to direct its ire, or back in the land of his first naturalization where they run the show.

As for Mark Zuckerberg escaping to his "virtual metaverse," well that's certainly in keeping with the overall seriousness of the Guardian.

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> Which region would be less affected by the coming climate crisis?

Do you have evidence that the ultra wealthy are actually taking this into account? Over a human timeframe every ultra wealthy person has access to plenty of “climate change safe“ locations, no particular advance planning is needed.

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Getting citizenship requires planning.
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> Calculation of unemployment […]

Define "unemployment". There are six (U-1 to -6) ways of classification in the US:

* https://www.bls.gov/lau/stalt.htm

* https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/080415/true-...

* https://www.investopedia.com/terms/u/unemployment.asp

And the fact that they're different between the US and other countries, and between other countries and other-other countries is well recognized; "International unemployment rates: how comparable are they?":

* https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2000/06/art1full.pdf

And this isn't something new; from 1957, "International Comparison of Unemployment Rates":

* https://www.nber.org/books-and-chapters/measurement-and-beha...

Just because they're different does not mean that they are "misleading" or 'manipulated'.

> The wealthiest people in the USA are now in the mode of grabbing what they can while the 'grabbing is still good.'

How is this new? Is greed something discovered recently and especially in the US?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman_doctrine

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age

Even stacking government with loyalist appointees is, to a certain extent, returning to 'the old ways' before reforms were enacted to clamp down on the practice:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_service_reform_in_the_Un...

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Kudos to this point.

For those not realizing that unemployment has several definitions - isn't it wonderful that all were published AND all are well-documented?

It's these points of reliability and trustworthiness that, complexity aside, we are losing from chaotic administration.

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I worked on a couple of projects with state workforce development agencies and federal agencies. I was always impressed with how much focus there was on the integrity of unemployment numbers, and especially with the emphasis on making sure methodologies ensure that data from the late 1800s can be compared against modern data.
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>Calculation of unemployment and real debt has seldom matched the norms of most other western countries

Source? For unemployment, isn't the U-3 definition used for "headline unemployment" consistent to most other countries?

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It is. Just fox news screams about the "true unemployment" U6 number when Democratics are in charge and then go back to reporting on U3 when a Republican is in office.

That said, measurement is not as easy today with so many gig workers. Government data is often driven by proxies because its too hard to measure directly and the number of people getting an llc for their uber/doordash/lyft/etc job is throwing off our math. Government currently uses number of new businesses as a proxy since generally people starting businesses are hiring people.

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The frustrating thing about the empire collapse is that it doesn't need to happen. There are still tons of highly energized and ostensibly disciplined and competitive people here. It's just that the production base was sold off to foreign lands and the aesthetic and moral project of "America" was effectively discontinued, for reasons unclear.
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I would argue the empire already collapsed, about a year ago when DOGE was tasked with killing every form of soft power that were put in place to present the country in the best possible light across the world.

Even with tons of talented and well-intentioned people and everyone fully aligned to re-build everything broken, it'd take decades to rebuild that trust that was lost in a matter of weeks.

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The first sign many Roman citizens had that their empire had collapsed is when a bridge near them fell down and nobody showed up to repair it.

America's been in that mode for a long time.

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That is your local city and county, not the "American empire". And your judgement in choosing where you live!8))
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> would argue the empire already collapsed

The republic may be collapsing. The empire comes after. The rich benefit if we transition to an autocratic empire based on American military might.

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> It'd take decades to rebuild that trust that was lost in a matter of weeks.

There is some truth to this. Other examples of crossing the line and breaking long-term trust would be:

To Canada: Statements about Canada last year.

To Europe: The idiocy around Greenland earlier this year

To the Middle East: Current events.

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If I may go a step further in history: tearing up the JCPOA (AKA the Iran deal) was like shouting from a megaphone "the US word means nothing now". Even the Palestine situation could've been predicted 6 years before Oct 7th when the US was the very first nation to move the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, before 5 others followed (none of them "significant").

Things have definitely accelerated in the second term, but it's not like there weren't signs that political leaders definitely noticed were disruptive, even if the wider public weren't as aware at the time.

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I do wonder how far certain acts could go in rebuilding the trust.

Ie real actual legal liability. Line up anyone who did insider trading, the doge guys, the big mouths in the big house, and put them through a zero tolerance military tribunal.

No bullshit kangaroo court where they're let off with a slap on the wrist because they're rich.

I mean strip every last one of these motherfuckers of everything they're worth. 180 the kangaroo court. Make a public mockery of them. Posters everywhere.

Think of it as a peace offering for the rest of the world. We could even include the war on terror guys in there, all the liars who claimed WMDs could go to the same federal prison. No cushions.

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> It's just that the production base was sold off to foreign lands

It wasn't. You are conflating "production" with "manufacturing." They're not the same. The US, for better or worse, produces a lot of value.

> moral project of "America" was effectively discontinued

I'm not sure America was ever a "moral project," considering the many many dark parts of its history. Nevertheless, at the moment moment, it seems to be on a quest find the bottom of the pit of depravity.

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We are also still manufacturing more in constant-$ value than we ever have, we just use a lot fewer person-hours/$ to do it.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USMANRGSP

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"Sold off" isn't wrong per se, but glosses over the root cause: Triffin dilemma.

The USD cannot exist as a reserve currency and support domestic manufacturing. That is to say, the US political engine and its benefactors sold out domestic manufacturing for international leverage.

Did it have to be this way? No, we could have implemented the Bancor, but the appeal of dominating international politics was irresistible. We cannot reindustrialize without giving up international financial power and with that in mind, who would still decide to switch?

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The land of the free, and all that. America was a radical moral project when it was founded, as a republic (when monarchies dominated the world) with enshrined religious freedom (when state-enforced religions were the norm). The Civil War arguably had a large moral dimension, too.
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* Does not apply to native Americans or slaves.
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Slavery was not supported in half of the initial US of A, and initially Native Americans had relatively benign relationships with the settlers, while the latter were weak. The course of America as a moral project was pretty meandering, but the moral dimension was almost always there.
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Or women. Or non-white immigrants. Or former slaves or their descendants. Etc etc
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Yeah, the more I learn about American history, the more I realize American elites were never bought in to the “moral project”, but were happy to use it as PR to a largely religious public.

Though I’m not particularly looking forward to living through the decline of the empire, I cling to the hope that a post-imperial America can emerge and attempt to live up to the dream of FDR, MLK, and that Jesus guy everyone seems to like so much but ignores all the inconvenient tolerance and sharing stuff he was so obsessed with.

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> for many years political manipulation of economic data has screwed things up

This is a myth. But a self-fulfilling one, given we’re cutting budgets to those agencies because so many Americans believe it.

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Yes, it's the classic "both sides" myth. It is promulgated in order to manufacture consent for doing the thing that "both sides" are supposedly already doing.
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> It is promulgated in order to manufacture consent for doing the thing that "both sides" are supposedly already doing

Manufacturing consent is horseshit because it gets the direction of causation wrong. Nobody is master planning any of this. Storytellers sell stories. And then politicians sense the vacuum of attention.

Fox News and Shadowstats don’t whip their flock up so DOGE could cut budgets. They did it to sell ads. DOGE then cut, mostly randomly. And there was no fury about these cuts so they stuck.

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> Calculation of unemployment and real debt has seldom matched the norms of most other western countries.

This is a big claim. What other countries? What are their methods and how do they differ?

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I think the real issue now is that it's 10x worse. The people controlling things are actively and shamelessly making things worse, for their own purposes (so there is less accountability, IMO). The problem is the new, unintended side effects of what they are doing. Because they aren't really that smart, they don't even understand this.
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> for many years political manipulation of economic data has screwed things up.

That’s a bold claim, do you have sources to back it up? If true, we’d all (I’d, at least) learn an important lesson.

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Calculating unemployment seems like it is always going to be a challenge no matter how it is done. For example, the current system in the US does not track unemployed graduates, as they have not been laid off and are not filing for unemployment benefits.
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That’s just not true. Most of the six unemployment numbers capture unemployed graduates but m3 the headline number certainly does.
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How is this information collected? When I was looking for work after grad school I didn't report to anyone as such. The school had no idea whether or not I was actively looking. I was denied unemployment. I'm not sure what my info might have looked like on the IRS end if that is what is being abrogated.
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https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.faq.htm

It also specifically says unemployment figures isn't solely from state unemployment insurance figures.

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"for many years political manipulation of economic data has screwed things up"

That's quite a claim. A "whopper" one might say.

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mark_l_watson says"The wealthiest people in the USA are now in the mode of grabbing what they can while the 'grabbing is still good.' "

(1)This is normal human behavior usually described as "capitalism". It has been well-studied & the literature awaits you, e.g., The Wealth of Nations, published in 1776 by Scottish economist Adam Smith. Go ahead: if you read the entire tome you may be the first man to do so. Perhaps you could write a usefully shortened version or versions of it.

mark_l_watson says"Without this immoral looting, our government could do a better job of protecting US citizens as our empire collapses."

(2)the behavior isn't immoral, as you will find by merely educating yourself [see (1)].

(3)There was/is no [US]"empire". And certainly none in the sense of the Persian, Mongol, Roman, incan, Spanish, British, French, or even, God forbid, Belgian empire, all of which were true empires.

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Your comment is broadly misleading. In fact, I would say that "shadow stats" guys like you have enabled the destruction of the system by creating the space to cast doubt on the valid methods used by BLS. BLS unemployment metrics have a valid basis and where they differ from Eurostat those differences are minor and with rational basis (such as 16 vs. 15 year old starting age).
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It is tough, though, for me to fully buy labor statistics when it has become the norm recently for them to be revised down. This spans back into Biden's term as well so it isn't one party either.

With a valid measure I would expect a roughly even distribution over time between underestimates and overestimates. For a valid measure worth considering I'd also expect the stat to be released later when revisions are less likely because more actual data has been collected

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> With a valid measure I would expect a roughly even distribution over time between underestimates and overestimates

This is a valid hypothesis. It’s wrong, and I’ll explain why. (It’s a bad and invalid thing to conclude.)

If measurement errors were iid, you’d be correct. But they’re not. They’re well documented for not being so. Earlier survey results are biased by directional response bias inasmuch as the employers with the lease changes respond first. So the earliest releases tend to match whatever was going on before. Then the employers who had to do paperwork respond. And then, finally, someone gets around to calling the folks who never got back. Some of them aren’t around anymore.

So yeah, the directional tendency in revisions is well documented. And for a long time, the early releases were appreciated. But maybe American statistical and media literacy is such that only final releases should be released, which would mean we’d always be working with data 6 months to a year out of date.

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That is a reasonable position, however the assumption that it is the administration that is gaming them vs other motivated parties is open for discussion.
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It is in fact not at all reasonable. They are saying that the BLS stats can't be trusted because they totally misunderstand the survey methodology. That isn't a reason!
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I’d counter that if we were doing a good job gathering data that these structural biases could be compensated for with more conservative initial numbers.

At some point a lack of decision to take compensating action becomes faking the numbers.

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> It is tough, though, for me to fully buy labor statistics when it has become the norm recently for them to be revised down.

There have been revisions since the forever, and this is because they depend in part of surveys, and if companies (and the people with-in them) don't bother responding in a timely or accurate manner then that's going to throw the sampling off.

> CES estimates are considered preliminary when first published each month because not all respondents report their payroll data by the initial release of employment, hours, and earnings. BLS continues to collect payroll data and revises estimates twice before the annual benchmark update (see benchmark revisions section below).

* https://www.bls.gov/opub/hom/ces/presentation.htm#revisions

Post-COVID surveying seems to have become more difficult (and BLS budget stagnation/cuts haven't helped). This has been a known issue for a while; see Odd Lots episode "Some of America's Most Important Economic Data Is Decaying":

> Gathering official economic data is a huge process in the best of times. But a bunch of different things have now combined to make that process even harder. People aren't responding to surveys like they used to. Survey responses have also become a lot more divided along political lines. And at the same time, the Trump administration wants to cut back on government spending, and the worry is that fewer official resources will make tracking the US economy even harder for statistical departments that were already stretched. Bill Beach was commissioner of labor statistics and head of the US Bureau of Labor Statistics during Trump's first presidency and also during President Biden's. On this episode, we talk to him about the importance of official data and why the rails for economic data are deteriorating so quickly.

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfgpqVixeIw

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I don't say stuff like this very often, but are you actually blaming a victim for dealing with the reality of government bsing its own stats instead of the government that allowed this bs to continue? BLS had only one thing going for it and it is mostly that it was used for long enough time that changing methodology would prevent us from being able to compare it prior time ranges. That is it. Otherwise, the methodology itself is seriously flawed ( and likely was from get go, but these days, it is absolutely the worst possible mix of options ).

Honestly, your comment made me mildly angry. That said, can you say why you believe parent's comment is misleading?

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Do you have a substantive complaint to make about the BLS methodology? So far all I see in your remark is shadowstats vibes.
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I've never met a single person willing to attest to filling out a BLS survey. Not once. If their methodology is built on that + unemployment data from State Unemployment agencies + data from payroll processors, anyone not collecting state unemployment benefits is invisible to the system, and half of the payroll is actually not even consituted of U.S. Citizens.

Admittedly, if I could find a single instance of someone willing to vouch or share insight on having filled out a BLS survey, that'd cure a healthy chunk of skepticism. There's still be the other distortions in the data to account for, but I'd at least have an instance proving that yeah, there is somebody filling out these surveys and it isn't just something they say they do to make their magic unemployment number sound legit.

Note, I'm in a massive sceptical shit phase at the moment. Last decade has burned my optimism hard. So when it comes to my ability to assume benevolent intent right now, there's a heavy bias against doing it, and a heavier bias in the direction of "what would be the easiest way to keep the System limping along?" The answer to that is "say you do one thing, in reality do another, and as long as no one comes lookin', it's gold." The finance industry runs on Trust moreso than anything else, and there ain't much to be said for Trusting anything you can't verify these days. Not from other humans.

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> I've never met a single person willing to attest to filling out a BLS survey

I’ve never met a single chicken farmer. Does that mean I should be sceptical about them existing? Like, what sort of metric is this for truth finding?

> to assume benevolent intent

No need. Markets move on these data. The rich and powerful bet their money on what they say.

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> I've never met a single person willing to attest to filling out a BLS survey.

Unless you have introduced yourself with this question to thousands of people, this is a totally meaningless statement. It says more about your social circle, your grasp of descriptive statistics, and the weird online stew you are soaking your brain in than it says about the CPS.

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I can't tell if you are serious or not. Lets assume for a moment that there was once a benefit to BLS survey methodology ( I would argue otherwise, but w/e ). Is it a good methodology today?

So my main argument ( and frankly the only argument that should matter ) is that is a bad fit for the goal of estimating values ( even though we do know its failure modes ). Is that not enough?

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What are the alternatives, and do other countries labor statistics agencies use them?
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Alternative is to build something better. Just about anything is better than the current survey system. What I would propose is something akin to "derived real-data unemployment system". All this data exists now, but is distributed. It can be stitched together, but if one was so inclined.

<< do other countries

No, it doesn't mean I am wrong.

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"BLS CPS is worse than a hypothetical better thing" is tautological, void, and without meaning.
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You made the argument and provided zero supporting evidence. As it stands, it's merely an opinion, and appears to be an uninformed one until you prove otherwise. That's what people are asking you to do.
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Sigh, your supporting evidence is a record of someone saying something, which itself is merely an opinion.. men in glass houses and all that. The interesting thing about my opinion is that while it may not be AS informed as yours, it is notably above the average level of knowledge when it comes to BLS.

<< That's what people are asking you to do.

No. What I am being asked to do is: "Show me a better way, but I only accept a better way that is already utilized by someone else". Not a recipe for a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

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We’ve never doubted the BLS numbers before until this admin. Think about how that screws things.
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Sure, but thetes a sizeable diffetence when skewed data becomes no-data.

Context has power. Removing it is thining the herd of power.

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I say removing skewed data forces people to confront reality as it actually is.

Instead of "This economy sucks!" "Yeah, but look at the data, it's getting better..."

Now we just have "This economy sucks!" "Yeah"

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what. People absolutely have no idea what's going on without large, organized data.

The point is, the argument isn't "this data is right leaning" vs "this data is left leaning" or whatever your skew-scope is.

The argument at present: "We don't need to know to know X" versus "Of course we need to know X".

And ther'es clearly a fascist convincing people it's all useless while they ply their grift of choice.

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Actual evidence of kompromats?

Israel? Bribes? We pay them ...

If one was to really think about national level bribes then presumably Saudi Arabia would be worthy of mention, given their involvement with the Trump (extended) family.

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> Actual evidence of kompromats?

Epstein.

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I'm not following the file disclosures in particular detail; I haven't yet heard any disclosures from the files that are evidence of kompromat. What are you thinking of?
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OK, so hearsay from Epstein. Which could easily be reliable. And could also not be. Also unclear precisely what "dirty" means. So sure, it adds to the pile, but we're not there yet, IMO.
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We are tightly integrated with Israel, joined at the hip, but you realize we are at war with Russia right? If we were controlled by Russia, we would not be at war with them.
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Are you? You're about to remove sanctions on them, not because they agreed to peace, because you destroyed your own other options (the Persian Gulf).
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Many parents that nominally "control" their children might take issue with this claim.

I don't have a particular position on the actual "controlled by Russia" claim.

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You would think...
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Depending upon which party controls the White House, numbers seem to be released to support a predictable narrative, then adjusted later.

But that's probably just my lying' eyes.

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this admin is different
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Now they just stop releasing. Thats a sizeable change. Even if you have a known bias, we can adjusy for that bias.

But if you just stop collecting data? No, these are not your father's red versus blue stats.

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One is safe to assume partisan shenanigans with every single government program and number until proven otherwise.
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Oh yeah? Like when inflation numbers were very high under Biden?

Please give specifics. Otherwise this is just grouchiness.

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