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Don't congratulate yet until you see actual outcomes.

The author of this commitment is the same person (Pavan Davuluri) spearheading move of Windows into an Agentic OS: https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/windows-11/windows-...

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I agree and sadly I wouldn't hold hopes to see actual meaningful changes (granted - last time had windows was win 7),

My reasoning is from bitter experience. I saw too many these honest talks/commitments - it always this pattern when product/company starts to decline. Suddenly somebody with technical background shows up talks about past mistakes and what need to fix. Even sometimes holds discussion, which is usually very reasonable. But as time goes there only cosmetic changes with excuses like lack of resources, market wind changed this time, too hard make changes due politics and etc.

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Something that comes to mind for me is the old Bill Gates trustworthy computing memo [0], from the era when early windows xp was getting flak for poor security. That was supposedly the turning point where they started those overhauls towards service pack 2 and likewise added a security focus in other products, and they decided they couldn't sneak in easter egg flight simulators into excel any more because it just added opportunities for flaws.

What stands out to me is the organization needs to be accept that change is needed and 'walk the walk', and also that those efforts take time. I've no idea what things are in motion in MS, but I wonder how quickly they can turn the ship, how much momentum is in their current direction and how much force is in turning. Moving the taskbar seems like addressing a loud persistent talking point, but it's one among many. What's the timeline (even though windows version timing seems like 'when they need branding')? Win12? Win13?

[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20020204233701/http://www.comput...

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Yeah, as soon as I saw the author, my optimism faded back to cynicism
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I can't upvote this comment enough.

The only thing I'd add is that not only did he tweet the infamous tweet that caused the backlash, Pavan ridiculed those in the backlash (since deleted). Also, Satya still spews the same "agentic OS" narrative as recent as last week.

So, I hope for the best, but I don't plan on taking them at their word.

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Everyone at MSFT who is senior is a lying piece of shit these days. I remember on here Satya being treated like the second coming of Jesus due to his promises. Any comments against him were downvoted.

Look where we are now.

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Absolutely nothing wrong with an "agentic OS", agentic UX is the future of personal computing. The ideal is that something intelligent understands what you want to do and gets it done.

Unless you really think we've reached the pinnacle of user interface with repetitive clicking around and menus.

The problem is with shoving AI down user's throats. Make it an option, not the only option.

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> The ideal is that something intelligent understands what you want to do and gets it done.

Maybe? For a couple of decades, we believed that computers you can talk to are the future of computing. Every sci-fi show worth a dime perpetuated that trope. And yet, even though the technology is here, we still usually prefer to read and type.

We might find out the same with some of the everyday uses of agentic tech: it may be less work to do something than to express your desires to an agent perfectly well. For example, agentic shopping is a use case some companies are focusing on, but I can't imagine it being easier to describe my sock taste preferences to an agent than click around for 5 minutes and find the stripe pattern I like.

And that's if we ignore that agents today are basically chaos monkeys that sometimes do what you want, sometimes rm -rf /, and sometimes spend all your money on a cryptocurrency scam. So for the foreseeable future, I most certainly don't want my OS to be "agentic". I want it to be deterministic until you figure out the chaos monkey stuff.

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I think your last paragraph is the real issue that will forever crush improvements over clicking on stuff. Once you get to "buy me socks" you're just entering some different advertising domain. We already see it with very simple things like getting Siri to play a song. Two songs with the same name, the more popular one will win, apply that simple logic to everything and put a pay to play model in it and there's your "agentic" OS of the future.
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Exactly. It would be like making all your purchasing decisions based on the first hit you get on Google
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I beg to differ that "the technology is here". Everyone I see who uses voice commands have to speak in a very contrived manner so that the computer can understand them properly. Computer vision systems still run into all sorts of weird edge cases.

We've progressed an impressive lot since, say, the nineties when computers (and the internet) started to spread to the general consumer market but the last 10% or so of the way is what would really be the game changer. And if we believe Pareto, of course that is gonna be 90% of the work. We've barely scratched the surface.

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yeah for me even with other people, the amount of times you think "it would be easier for me to just show you" is maybe 30% of interactions with agents currently.

perplexity keeps trying to get me to use "computer" and for the life of me I can't think of anything I'd actually do with it.

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> it may be less work to do something than to express your desires to an agent perfectly well

As I use AI more and more to write code I find myself just implementing something myself more and more for this reason. By the time I have actually explained what I want in precise detail it's often faster to have just made the change myself.

Without enough detail SOTA models can often still get something working, but it's usually not the desired approach and causes problems later.

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It all depends on where the the AI is running. The problem with the idea, is that for the majority of Windows boxes where it would be running do not have the bare metal hardware to support local models and thus it would be in the cloud and all of the issues associated with that when it comes to privacy/security. It would be neat, given MSFT's footprint, to look to develop small models, running locally, with user transparency when it comes to actions, but that doesn't align with MSFT's core objectives.
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AFAIK the existing Copilot features always use the NPU and do not fall back to the cloud. Given that Windows 12 will require an NPU I don't see why it would fall back either.
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This is true for only features of Copilot+. The issue that MSFT faces, especially as it pushes Copilot EVERYWHERE is the reality of the majority if the hardware running Windows does not, and will not have, the NPU required for 12, nor is there the actual consumer purchasing power, to upgrade hardware to have an NPU. This a reality that MSFT just does not seem want to deal with while the push the technology onto consumers because its not based off of the reality of the install base they are dealing with but rather trying to justify their strategic investment into AI in the B2C space without doing the proper product market fit to justify it.
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Five stars comment
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What would an agentic UX look like that is better than the current OS experience?

typing "open hackernews" into copilot instead of clicking the browser and typing hackernews?

99% of OS interactions already boil down to 2 clicks and a search phrase.

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- "summarize the discussions on hacker news of last week based on what I would find interesting".

- "Plan my summer vacation with my family, suggest different options"

- "Look at my household budget and find ways to be more frugal."

There are thousands of things I can think of when it comes to how an agentic OS would work better than the current Screen Keyboard paradigm. I mean all these things I could now do with Claude or Codex and some of these things I already do with these tools.

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I don't want those. Why read books when you can have an ai summarize it in two paragraphs for you? Because I want to know and learn and enrich myself.
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Sure but most people just want to get shit done. If you don't want it you can always take the long meandering path, no one is stopping that.
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Neither of those really have to do with the OS though. For example:

> Plan my summer vacation with my family, suggest different options

What part of this does an agentic OS help with? My OS doesn't know my travel preferences, family size, work schedule, etc.

These are more appropriate tasks for a smart assistant.

What specifically does an agentic OS UX look like beyond giving claude access to local files and a browser?

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> I mean all these things I could now do with Claude or Codex and some of these things I already do with these tools.

huh? ... this reads to me like you don't need an "agentic" OS to do the things you'd want to use an "agentic" OS for..?

like... it seems you just don't want a keyboard to do the same things you've already been doing? ... is that the crux of it?

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None of those need to, or should, be done at the OS level.
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when i hear bollocks like "agentic UX" i think of things like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmz67ErIRa4

i feel like someone high up in microsoft probably has this pinned in a epic or something somewhere

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> The ideal is that something intelligent understands what you want to do and gets it done.

I think you and I have very different meanings of "intelligent", "understands" and "gets it done"

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I think something like this is the goal, and there's still a long way to go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV01B5kVsC0

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"Agentic typewriters are the future of typewriting. The idea is that something intelligent understands what you want to type and types it for you. Unless you really think we've reached the pinnacle of typewriter interfaces with repetitive key taps and carriage returns."

See how that sounds a bit silly? It's because it presents a false dichotomy. That our choice is between either the current state of interfaces or an agentic system which strips away your autonomy and does it for you.

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There's nothing wrong with an "agentic OS" if it's built on top of a regular good OS.

There's everything wrong when "agentic" means that the regular bread-and-butter functionality of the OS becomes unusable.

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Even theoretical AI still has the other mind problem from economics.

Communicating and predicting desires, preferences, thoughts, feelings from one mind to another is difficult.

Fundamentally the easiest way of getting what you want is to be able to do it yourself.

Introduce an agent, and now you get the same utility issues of trying to guess what gifts to buy someone for their birthday. Sure every now and then you get the marketers "surprise and delight", but the main experience is relatively middling, often frustrating and confusing, and if you have any skill or knowledge in The area or ability to do it yourself, ultimately frustrating.

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We've already been through this when people a decade ago thought voice was the future of the computer.

When that completely didn't work, we thought that augmented reality was the future of the computer, which also didn't work out.

You need a screen to be able to verify what you're doing (try shopping on Amazon without a screen), which means you also need a UI around it, which then means voice (and by extension agents which also function by conversation) is slower and dumber than the UI, every time.

Meanwhile I have yet to see any brand excited to be integrated with ChatGPT and Claude. Unlike a consumer; being a purely "reasoning-based" agent, they're most likely to ignore everything aesthetic and pick the bottom of the barrel cheapest option for any category. How do you convince an AI to show your specific product to a customer? You don't.

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We’ve had computing technology that clearly understands what the user wants to do. It’s called a command line interface. No guessing, no recommendations, no dark patterns, no bullshit.
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"I just ran rm -rf /* accidentally, but I meant rm -rf ./* (notice the star after the slash)."

https://serverfault.com/questions/337082/

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Are they?

I see nothing about privacy, spying, forced microsoft accounts and continued locking down of windows that they've been doing.

I see that they're bringing back _some_ of the taskbar options you had in windows 10 (termed it as "introducing"), they promise to make Explorer faster, great. But they also say they're bringing more AI into windows and something about widgets that I don't think anyone cares about.

And lastly they're promising to revamp the place where you go to rant at microsoft, but they're not promising to actually listen to feedback.

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privacy, spying, forced microsoft accounts...

Yep. That stuff makes money (via upsells) so it will never be removed.

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Yep, wanted to write the same thing. I remember 2 occasions when even Windows 10 Pro attempted to force me to login into MS account when booting my Laptop. Somehow I skipped it (I don't remember well what I did, since obviously they made it unintuitive). Much later I eventually logged into the account just to buy Minecraft, but boy, this sudden forcing to use MS accounts during the boot was so disgusting. I guess this is becoming much worse now. After learning that MS is making harder and harder to setup local account (eventually it will become impossible?) and even Notepad can ask for MS account, I deleted Windows and installed Ubuntu.

Online accounts are fine when optional, but unacceptable when forced.

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This is just cheap damage control, just wait and see if they actually do all of those things correctly. Slow file explorer was an issue since very beginning of windows 11 and they "fix" it only now? But they took time to add copilot to snippet tool?
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> Windows touches more people’s lives than almost any technology on Earth. Every day, we hear from the community about how you experience Windows. And over the past several months, the team and I have spent a great deal of time analyzing your feedback. What came through was the voice of people who care deeply about Windows and want it to be better.

They are not even acknowledging that feedback is negative. They make it sound like a love fest where users love windows so much that they want to make it even better.

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> improvements to Windows Update

Even with their proposed “improvements” to Windows Update it would remain inferior in principle to what it was in Windows 7 (or 8 which I never used) and prior when you could “pause” updates indefinitely or, in non-dystopian terms, refuse them. If a third party, even one that you trust, can mandate changes to the software on your computer, then it is not really your computer.

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I'm sorry but I need to see it to believe it. Otherwise who can explain, how the Windows Explorer struggles to list 20 files.

How is it even possible to spend 4-5 seconds to show a list of files in a local freaking folder?

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I find that this happens when you enter folders that have media files like audio files, video files and so on. One way to fix it is to enter one such folder, then remove all columns (like file name, date modified - those columns) and remove all the columns that are media metadata columns. Things like track length, artist, contributing artist or whatever else, then click in the File explorer menu on the 3 dots icon (**) and select View tab, then click 'Apply to folders'. This will apply the column and view settings that you just applied to all such folders.

Now all folders with media files open immediately. Also if you want no wait for video files folders, right click in the folder and select 'View -> Details or View -> List or some other option where it doesn't create thumbnails and it'll load even quicker.

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I feel like most interns would be smart enough to know that you should lazy load these metrics. It's incredible that MS put this into production.
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> remove all columns (like file name, date modified - those columns) and remove all the columns that are media metadata columns [...] click in the File explorer menu on the 3 dots icon (*) and select View tab, then click 'Apply to folders' [...] click in the folder and select 'View -> Details or View -> List or some other option

I'm sorry, this is very funny to me in the context of the person upthread arguing about how great "agentic OSes" are. Some people seem to believe that we're living in the future, but I'm pretty sure we're still stuck in Windows '95.

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This was never a problem in older Windows versions.
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> remove all columns (like file name, date modified - those columns) and remove all the columns that are media metadata columns.

Surely you don't mean remove all columns, and if you did you wouldn't have to also specify removing media metadata columns?

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Sorry I messed up how I wrote that. I meant to only remove metadata columns, not all columns.
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It's not just media files. I'm forced to use Windows 11 on my work PC, and I had to disable the new shell extensions to make the file explorer usable again. It's noticeably faster without the new UI.
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It's less work at this point to just wipe the drive and install linux.
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Looking up media details is of course one of the main reasons. Thank you for sharing this information. However, all the folders are already configured as general folders and this one specifically has a bunch of PDF files.

When such basic tasks are failing spectacularly, nobody can have any confidence that complex things can be achieved reliably. Instead of spying on their users and trying to squeeze more and more money from them, they should first focus on making a great product and work on making it better, not researching ways to enshitify things.

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The Windows computer I have to use at work takes over 15 seconds to start the new calculator app. The old calculator launched instantly.
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I've seen that too. I discovered Calculator was doing a DNS lookup for some reason, and that slow DNS resolution was the cause...

That's a why, but it raises more questions than it does answers.

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Arithmetic may have updated.
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Nah, analytics. Some PM needs to know which operands are most used so they can optimize the calculator layout to improve the UX. And for the least used operands, they'll take a pragmatic stance and remove them to clean up the interface.
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This sounds wildly optimistic. I buy the metrics compilation, but I'll be damned if there's any PM at Microsoft (or Apple or Google for that matter) who's interested in '[optimizing] the calculator layout to improve the UX.'

I need that Drake meme here, where he's negative about the idea "Optimize the calculator layout to improve the UX" and very enthusiastic about the idea "Find ways to get incremental revenue from users of Calculator with ads or selling of data"

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The fact these people are probably making 300k/year is seriously starting to piss me off.
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Have we considered math results in the context of GDPR? Maybe it needs a cookie configuration dialogue.
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Now with new Plus++
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An LLM writes and compiles a new calculator app from scratch every time you open it.
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Obliterating the performance of a calculator wasn't enough, they actually managed to introduce some all new usability regressions as well. They decided to localize inputs so now periods don't work depending on your locale. Copying numbers also includes the formatted and localized output as well instead of the raw value. Parsers are going to love those commas.

We're reaching Microslop levels we never thought possible. I actually think Claude Code would have done a better job.

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Be grateful we are talking about a desktop OS where you are free to not use the built-in apps and even install an arbitrary calculator of your choosing. Unlike dozens of built-in "Apps" on mobile platforms that just exist and you can either use them all as provided, or switch to (Apple or Android).
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I'm recommending your for a mid-level management role at my employer right now.
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Right now my start menu randomly crashes. Like all I see is a black box with no icons. I'm impressed with how even basic functionalities break pretty often
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Reminds me of the new task manager not responding. Like really?
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Well honestly, that's the easiest problem to fix: just install any of the dozens of excellent and stable third party file managers. I for instance am (or was, while I still used Windows) a fan of Total Commander (actually, when I started using it, it was called Windows Commander). As a bonus, you'll be spared the useless UI and usability changes inflicted upon you with every new Windows version.
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If you're going to replace tools as fundamental as the file manager, you may as well switch to a stable and fast operating system like most Linux distributions or Mac.
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Yeah, that's what I did, eventually, but some people still need some software that only runs under Windows, or want to play games without messing around with Proton etc. etc.
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Maybe there's an LLM learning about sorting from first principles every time you click to change the sort column.
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All this means is that it will go underwater.
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> They're saying all the right things here ..

No. "Commitment" in corporate speak is a synonym for "absolute lack of intention". That's why corps 'commit' to reducing emissions, treating employees fairly, etc, ie. to all the things they will not do. But no suit 'commits' to making money. They just make money. It's just a superficial linguistic gesture. Shakespeare got it.

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> They're saying all the right things here.

They are not saying "we will remove the mandate to use a Microsoft Account." By itself, that shows their "care" is purely corporate, likely driven to calm down furious OEMs who will happily remind them Apple doesn't need an Apple Account to use a now-cheap Mac.

Also, because Nadella can't stand the word, I'll say it right here: Microslop is still making Winslop to help people make Officeslop to then upload to Slopdrive.

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Good point, and that one has actually caused logistical headaches. If someone tries to set up a new out-of-box computer without an internet connect, well, you just cannot. Even the previously working bypass has been removed in a recent update.

And, yes, I am aware that Pro/Enterprise don't suffer from this, but a LOT of computers sold are Windows Home/OEM licenses. It impacts a ton of people.

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They also aren't saying "we're going to prioritize performance and make sure that when we rewrite functionality, it performs just as well as what it's replacing". Color me skeptical that they actually care about quality.
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it's funny because from Apple side, the OS is not that rosy either, it's buggier it has ever been.

(that's an overstatement, early OS X were buggy too, but they just switched to Unix after OS9, so, understandable.)

it's just better than Windows, which is just aggressively bad. (and I guess Linux is eating their gamers market with Proton? but I am not a gamer)

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Can't help but feel like Microsoft is getting pressured by the laptop OEMs to make Windows not suck, because of the MacBook Neo is going to eat all their lunches.
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It's death by a thousand cuts for Windows.

- The OS is getting buggier, with every large update getting press coverage on scary bugs.

- The OS is getting overbearing; constant nagging for upsells on Microsoft products with terrible attach rates.

- The OS is getting focused on hype; the latest trend is AI?Let's force a new button on people that will break decades-old workflows. Let's put AI everywhere.

- The OS is getting slow; there's no focus on speed and the place where 85% of the market resides (laptops) is getting completely trounced by Apple Silicon.

- The OS is getting squeezed; under 300$ it's all terrible e-waste in six months Chromebooks. Over 500$ Apple is aggressively entering the market with the Neo. Over 1,000$ Apple has owned a commanding share of the profits there for decades.

There are 994 more problems with Windows but I've made my point; there's just no end in sight to the problems with Windows. I haven't mentioned it's become a minor part of Microsoft's profits!

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An optimist! I love to see it.

Saying and doing are very different. They have passed through the "fuck around" phase, and are entering the "find out" phase of this AI journey. Lots of companies are, suddenly.

My employer trained us all on the Gartner hype cycle, tested us on how to remain level-headed before and during the peak of unreasonable expectations and now every single manager in the company is drooling over AI, saying that "this is the future, join us or find another job" and I cannot wait for the curve to come back down to a sane level where intelligence rules behavior as much as it used to. We'll see.

We’ve certainly done the “fucking around” and now we'll see if we "find out" enough to regain our sanity and our humanity.

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...I almost thought it was a parody site!
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