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> Lattner found nothing innovative in the code generated by AI

I don't think the replacement is binary. Instead, it’s a spectrum. The real concern for many software engineers is whether AI reduces demand enough to leave the field oversupplied. And that should be a question of economy: are we going to have enough new business problems to solve? If we do, AI will help us but will not replace us. If not, well, we are going to do a lot of bike-shedding work anyway, which means many of us will lose our jobs, without or without AI.

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> AI tends to accept conventional wisdom. Because of this, it struggles with genuine critical thinking and cannot independently advance the state of the art.

Of course! But that's what makes them so powerful. In 99% of cases that's what you want - something that is conventional.

The AI can come up with novel things if it has an agency, and can learn on its own (using e.g. RL). But we don't want that in most use cases, because it's unpredictable; we want a tool instead.

It's not true that this lack of creativity implies lack of intelligence or critical thinking. AI clearly can reason and be critical, if asked to do so.

Conceptually, the breakthrough of AI systems (especially in coding, but it's to some extent true in other disciplines) is that they have an ability to take a fuzzy and potentially conflicting idea, and clean up the contradictions by producing a working, albeit conventional, implementation, by finding less contradictory pieces from the training data. The strength lies in intuition of what contradictions to remove. (You can think of it as an error-correcting code for human thoughts.)

For example, if I ask AI to "draw seven red lines, perpendicular, in blue ink, some of them transparent", it can find some solution that removes the contradictions from these constraints, or ask clarifying questons, what is the domain, so it could decide which contradictory statements to drop.

I actually put it to Claude and it gave a beautiful answer:

"I appreciate the creativity, but I'm afraid this request contains a few geometric (and chromatic) impossibilities: [..]

So, to faithfully fulfill this request, I would have to draw zero lines — which is roughly the only honest answer.

This is, of course, a nod to the classic comedy sketch by Vihart / the "Seven Red Lines" bit, where a consultant hilariously agrees to deliver exactly this impossible specification. The joke is a perfect satire of how clients sometimes request things that are logically or physically nonsensical, and how people sometimes just... agree to do it anyway.

Would you like me to draw something actually drawable instead? "

This clearly shows that AI can think critically and reason.

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>Chris Lattner, inventor of the Swift programming language recently took a look at a compiler entirely written by Claude AI. Lattner found nothing innovative in the code generated by AI [1]. And this is why humans will be needed to advance the state of the art.

"Needed to advance the state of the art" and actually deployed to do so are two different things. More likely either AI will learn to advance the state of the art itself, or the state of the art wont be advancing much anymore...

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  > ...generate answers near the center of existing thought.
This is right in the Wikipedia's article on universal approximation theorem [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_approximation_theore...

"n the field of machine learning, the universal approximation theorems (UATs) state that neural networks with a certain structure can, in principle, approximate any continuous function to any desired degree of accuracy. These theorems provide a mathematical justification for using neural networks, assuring researchers that a sufficiently large or deep network can model the complex, non-linear relationships often found in real-world data."

And then: "Notice also that the neural network is only required to approximate within a compact set K {\displaystyle K}. The proof does not describe how the function would be extrapolated outside of the region."

NNs, LLMs included, are interpolators, not extrapolators.

And the region NN approximates within can be quite complex and not easily defined as "X:R^N drawn from N(c,s)^N" as SolidGoldMagiKarp [2] clearly shows.

[2] https://github.com/NiluK/SolidGoldMagikarp

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It has been proven that recurrent neural networks are Turing complete [0]. So for every computable function, there is a neural network that computes it. That doesn't say anything about size or efficiency, but in principle this allows neural networks to simulate a wide range of intelligent and creative behavior, including the kind of extrapolation you're talking about.

[0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002200008...

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I think you cannot take the step from any turing machine being representable as a neural network to say anything about the prowess of learned neural networks instead of specifically crafted ones.

I think a good example are calculations or counting letters: it's trivial to write turing machines doing that correctly, so you could create neural networks, that do just that. From LLM we know that they are bad at those tasks.

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Turing conpleteness is not associated with crativity or intelligence in any ateaightforward manner. One cannot unconditionally imply the other.
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> And this is why humans will be needed to advance the state of the art.

What percentage of developers advance the state of the art, what percentage of juniors advance the state of the art?

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Yeah I think he had a pretty sane take in that article:

>CCC shows that AI systems can internalize the textbook knowledge of a field and apply it coherently at scale. AI can now reliably operate within established engineering practice. This is a genuine milestone that removes much of the drudgery of repetition and allows engineers to start closer to the state of the art.

And also

> The most effective engineers will not compete with AI at producing code, but will learn to collaborate with it, by using AI to explore ideas faster, iterate more broadly, and focus human effort on direction and design. Lower barriers to implementation do not reduce the importance of engineers; instead, they elevate the importance of vision, judgment, and taste. When creation becomes easier, deciding what is worth creating becomes the harder problem. AI accelerates execution, but meaning, direction, and responsibility remain fundamentally human.

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I think this article was on HN a few days ago.
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> Claude AI. Lattner found nothing innovative in the code generated by AI [1]. And this is why humans will be needed to advance the state of the art

And yet the AI probably did better than 99% of human devs would have done in a fraction of the time.

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Human devs rarely need to create compilers. Those that do would do much better job.

what’s your point again?

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LLMs still do forEach, it’s like wearing Tommy Hilfiger
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That's one of the benefits of LLMs: they don't care for bullshit fashion
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So AI won't surpass humans, because Chris Lattner can do better than a model than didn't exist two years ago?
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> Chris Lattner, inventor of the Swift programming language recently took a look at a compiler entirely written by Claude AI. Lattner found nothing innovative in the code generated by AI [1].

Well, of course. Despite people applying the label of AI to them, LLMs don't have a shred of intelligence. That is inherent to how they work. They don't understand, only synthesize from the data they were trained on.

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>Despite people applying the label of AI to them, LLMs don't have a shred of intelligence. That is inherent to how they work. They don't understand, only synthesize from the data they were trained on

People also "synthesize from the data they were trained on". Intelligence is a result of that. So this dead-end argument then turns into begging the question: LLMs don't have intelligence because LLMs can't have intelligence.

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> don't have a shred of intelligence. ... They don't understand, only synthesize from the data they were trained on.

Couldn't you say that about 99% of humans too?

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99% of humans in a particular specialization, sure. It's the 1% who become experts in that specialization who are able to advance the state of the art. But it's a different 1% for every area of expertise! Add it all up and you get a lot more than 1% of humans contributing to the sum of knowledge.

And of course, if you don't limit yourself to "advancing the state of the art at the far frontiers of human knowledge" but allow for ordinary people to make everyday contributions in their daily lives, you get even more. Sure, much of this knowledge may not be widespread (it may be locked up within private institutions) but its impact can still be felt throughout the economy.

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>99% of humans in a particular specialization, sure. It's the 1% who become experts in that specialization who are able to advance the state of the art

How? By also "synthesizing the data they were trained on" (their experience, education, memories, etc.).

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Yes, and the natural extension is that a lot of what people do day to day is not work-driven by intelligence; it is just reusing a known solution to a presented problem in a bespoke manner. However, this is something that AI excels at.
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The LLM was trained on 100% of humans, the 99% you’re scoffing at is feeding the LLM answers.
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100% (or close to it) of material AI trains on was human generated, but that doesn't mean 100% of humans are generating useful material for AI training.
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Let's train one on just the expert written code and books then, and not the entirety of GitHub or Stack Overflow and such, and see how it fares...
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Yes... maybe not 99%...
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You could say the same thing about Chris Lattner. How did he advance the state of the art with Swift? It’s essentially just a subjective rearranging of deck chairs: “I like this but not that.” Someone had to explain to Lattner why it was a good idea to support tail recursion in LLVM, for example - something he would have already known if he had been trained differently. He regurgitates his training just like most of us do.

That might read like an insult to Lattner, but what I’m really pointing out is that we tend to hold AIs to a much higher standard than we do humans, because the real goal of such commentary is to attempt to dismiss a perceived competitive threat.

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So the problem with Chris’ take is “This one for fun project didn’t produce anything particularly interesting.”

So outside of the fact that we have magic now that can just produce “conventional “ compilers. Take it to a Moore’s Law situation. Start 1000 create a compiler projects- have each have a temperature to try new things, experiment, mutate. Collate - find new findings - reiterate- another 1000 runs with some of the novel findings. Assume this is effectively free to do.

The stance that this - which can be done (albeit badly) today and will get better and/or cheaper - won’t produce new directions for software engineering seems entirely naive.

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Moors law states that the number of transistors in an integrated circuit doubles about every two years. It has nothing to say about the capabilities of statistical models.

In fact in statistics we have another law which states that as you increase parameters the more you risk overfitting. And overfitting seems to already be a major problem with state of the art LLM models. When you start overfitting you are pretty much just re-creating stuff which is already in the dataset.

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