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I tried to do this out of undergrad (graduated last year). Many companies do both good and bad things to me, some more good than bad. The "best of the best" companies to me require many years of experience and are still competitive. I didn't really want an entry level job at an "evil" company, so I'm going to go do a PhD (in something unrelated to my original interest in operating systems, as I don't want to be a 30k/yr automaton part of Meta's R&D machine).

My point is: it's very, very, very hard to do this, especially with my set of interests (lots of OS work is in the datacenter, which leads to jobs with hyperscalers; I consider many of those companies evil). I'm trying. It will probably make my QoL worse for some time, and I'll probably give up eventually.

Also, evil is undefined in some sense. Is it wrong to do something "good" at a company that has an "evil" aspect?

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> My point is: it's very, very, very hard to do this, especially with my set of interests

It is very, very, very hard because you're making it hard by insisting on finding a strong intersection with your set of interests.

Half the jobs I've had aligned well with my interests. They were also in the lower half of jobs I liked. The best jobs I've had were the boring ones. It turns out, there's a lot more to jobs than just what you work on.

The most important thing is to keep a roof over your head. Next is saving for retirement. And then there are things like work environment, the people you work with, team dynamics, the actual technical work, etc.

I've found that the most intellectually fun/challenging work was usually coupled with the most dysfunctional teams. It's likely just a coincidence, but it was a good lesson that other things matter at least as much.

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I honestly think is it bad for you to be that morally insistent against "evil" companies.

I also think it's not as easy as most people make it. It's not the poor and innocent people that are oppressed by all this evil companies. These companies are just a reflection of the people and the society we live in.

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Yes. I work at boring companies that are not evil instead. Never went to my local magnate (Comcast), left a company when they off/onshored entire teams to HCL slaves, etc.

No i won't make 350K as a dev. Yes i will have a paltry middle class existence while we still have a profession called IT.

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I used to work on software for non-profits. I found it fulfilling but it was hard to do the work since I found fullstack technically uninteresting (this is my own shortcoming).

Finding a balance in that is difficult. I have seen that it might be easier to find a societally good job the less technically deep the job gets. Networking research seems to be both technically interesting and connected to societal impact (eg. because of the ties to censorship, security, net neutrality etc)

It seems hard to continue doing this sort of research after your PhD though, as in both your school name matters immensely (i.e. you're screwed if you didn't go to Berkeley, CMU, Stanford, or MIT) and so does your publishing success to land a research job, which seems like an enormous task.

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The key to not working for evil companies is to have more choice in who you do work for, which involves living way below your means so that you can save inordinate amounts of income and "retire" early - which is just code for "do the work I want to do for those I want to work for".
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So exactly what for profit company is on the side of the angels?
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Sometimes the lesser evil is truly a lesser evil.
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Many of the startups I work with. We’re helping save the oceans and land. Purpose and profit are dream scenarios for me. It’s difficult in a capitalist economy but it exists.
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Are those startups self funded or funded by VCs? If they are funded by VCs, it doesn’t matter what your company wants.
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Why stick with for-profit companies? But on measure I'd say System76, n8n, Nextcloud, GridX, Odoo, Tuxedo, GitLab, Uplight, Aurora Solar, Bandcamp (maybe), Bitwarden, Canonical (maybe), Scribd, Arcadia, Wikihow. Basically any time you find yourself enjoying a product you're using, see who made it and if they're hiring.

Sure it's an uphill battle. This is late-stage capitalism after all and unless you're comfortable with a role that extracts from people who weren't planning in being extracted from you're not going to make a ton of money. That's what it takes to be on the side of the angels though.

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I'm not unemployed right now, but in the past have applied to literally every one of those companies and been declined from every one of those companies.

It's hard to find jobs at companies that aren't run by monsters; even if you can identify a company that isn't terrible, there's still a relatively low likelihood of getting a job there.

I'm not blaming the companies for not hiring me, I'm sure they have their reasons for their terrible decision of passing up on someone as handsome and smart as me [1], and I am certainly not entitled to a job, but when I run out of companies that seem ethical, what do you do then?

It's easy to say "well start your own company!", and sure if you have the ability to do that then that's great, but I don't even really know where to begin with finding investors for stuff I'm working on, and I'm not sure that anything I'm working on would be interesting to investors anyway.

[1] It's true, my mom told me!

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Because for profits have the most employment opportunities? All of the companies named in replies to my initial comment hire a minuscule number of people.
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If you're looking to scale, then you're looking for companies that scale, and if you're looking for companies that scale, you're not looking for angels. I used to think Cloudflare was an exception to this belief but today I'm not so sure.
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Wait what's wrong with Cloudflare?
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GitLab is for profit, isn't it?
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I tried to focus on for-profit, but I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with non-profits either. In fact I don't think I consciously mentioned a non-profit but I might have.
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your local food bank only has so many open positions
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The more people who believe this, the easier it is for me to find a job at a place I respect, so thank you.
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Ideally it would be "don't buy from Oracle", but we don't get to affect those decisions.
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Ironically this would just fuel more layoffs.
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The right thing to be said here. Oracle is trash. Would you expect rude idiots to be nice smart people all of a sudden?
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List successful companies you would not define as evil.
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37signals, vanguard, costco, proton, fastmail, mullvad vpn, framework, automattic, valve, patagonia, lego, linear, hetzner, tarsnap, ...
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Ok, and when you apply for and get rejected from all those companies, what do you do then? Suppose you give me a list of literally every company you think is ok, and I were declined by all of them, then what?

This isn't a theoretical question for me. I've applied to and been declined from all the companies you listed (except tarsnap because I didn't see a careers page). What exactly do I do then? Do I then just decide that food is overrated and be content with not having paycheck?

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Create your own company.
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Ok, great. Let's say I agree that that's a good response. I would still likely need investor money, which I don't even know how to get but even if I did then I have a similar problem of having to make sure that I only have ethical investors. I'm not saying that they don't exist but I'm not exactly fond of the big institutional VC firms.

Let's not also forget that most companies go broke, and realistically most of us don't have any ideas that are likely to make a sustainable business.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't try and find an ethical place to work for or start a business, I'm just saying that it's not as easy as "just apply to places that don't suck".

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Valve has been making money hand over fist by getting kids addicted to gambling…
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The snowball of government intervention has started rolling on them.
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There are those who attribute evil to Lego, and they may have a case (historically or now).

Automattic has apparently gone insane, but that's not the same as evil.

Valve might be the closest to a HN-agree on "good company" - and even that has a comment below mine attributing gambling to them.

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Valve takes 30% of revenue from developers because they have cornered the distribution market. Their margins on the steam store are probably second only to the apple store's, another heinously immoral product.
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If everybody does it wrong and you know the right way - sounds like you’re sitting on a million dollar idea.
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Consumers have no incentive to switch because they don’t care that devs are being taken advantage of, that’s what makes the scheme evil.
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"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain"

It is only a matter of time...

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People can’t wait to make heroes villains.
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Costco maybe?
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Pine64. ("Successful" doesn't have to mean "a megacorp".)
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Just starting with "Not totally abhorrent and aiding the destruction of democracy in the US" would be fine.

Instead of working for Zuck or Google or Larry, you can work for Garmin, Shopify, Visa and Mastercard, most banks (they are soulless but some aren't always evil), grocery chains, pretty much any local business, car companies, non-weapon or surveillance based government work, IDEXX, hell even Apple imo and I dislike Apple, nearly every business that isn't "Tech"

Basically just stop pretending that the industry is only Google, Facebook, AWS, Microsoft, and Oracle. There's something like millions of jobs that aren't in those companies.

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It's very very hard to do this because any public company will be evil in the name of 'shareholder value' EVERY.SINGLE.TIME.
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Easier said than done. Most of us end up working for monsters if you go high enough up on the ladder.

I'm certainly not saying that you shouldn't have boundaries; there are certain companies that I will absolutely not work for no matter what they pay me (e.g. Palantir). I'm just saying that if you draw the line at "don't work for bad company", it's going to be hard to pay your bills since due to the lovely world of capitalism the people on top are usually sociopaths.

To be clear, I do agree broadly; if you can find a company that has decent people running it and doesn't appear to be evil to you, you should probably work for that company. The problem is that the job market is very competitive and you often have to take what you can get.

I'm in a privileged position to where I can be a little choosy with my work (for now!), but I can't really judge someone who has a family to take care of for doing what they need to to pay the bills.

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> Don’t work for evil companies.

I'm certainly not a fan of Oracle (or the wider scale damage the Ellisons have been doing), but I also can't bring myself to be so flippant when an action this large is going to cause untold amounts of personal tragedies.

See, for example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/employeesOfOracle/comments/1s8m58p/...

Today this unfortunate guy, tomorrow perhaps me.

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