upvote
There's (perhaps unfortunately) nothing stopping you from signing away your freedom of speech.
reply
I understand freedom of speech and I understand she's free to speak but there may be consequences. I understand that there are huge complexities in the legal system. I understand you can enter into agreements (part of your speech) that effectively gives away your speech. But if you step back and look at this situation, it's just fucked up that a corporation can do this to you. If freedom of speech is supposed to be inalienable, these types of agreements should not be legal.

disclaimer: She lives in the UK and I'm speaking from a US perspective.

reply
The corporation did not do this to her. It was a two party agreement. She bears just as much blame for the agreement as the corporation. She entered into it willingly. And that does and should have consequences.

Morally speaking I think the company is reprehensible. But nor do I think contact law should be changed because of it.

reply
I'd agree with you if there wasn't a significant power imbalance that virtually always skews way more in favor of the corporation.

It is far more likely that an individual would do best to agree to a corporation's terms even if they favor the corporation than the other way around.

reply
The antidote to a power imbalance is to recognize that there is no power imbalance and go about your life that way.

Pretending there is one lands you in an imaginary trap. Build a society where we recognize that and you build a society where the imaginary trap disappears.

reply
You're the one pretending here. The economy is unfortunately designed around most people relying on an income stream that remains at the whims of someone else.
reply
> She lives in the UK and I'm speaking from a US perspective.

But the contract is being enforced from the US.

reply
The UK is far worse, with draconian libel laws where the burden of proof is on the defendant. Originally designed to stop uppity commoners from challenging the aristocrats, now used by oligarchs to silence journalists.
reply
> I understand she's free to speak but there may be consequences

nit: this isn't generally a valid analysis. Rather, it's a common refrain used by people undermining freedom of speech while pretending to support it. This trope is often even trotted out in full-powertalk mode where it's applied to consequences coming from the government itself.

reply
Is it freedom if you can't make an informed choice to sell it?
reply
You just lost your job, through no fault of your own, or maybe because you did the right thing and blew the whistle on illegal and/or unethical behavior. You don't know how long it will be before you find a new job or how you are going to pay the bills until then. Your employer offers you some money to tie you over, and maybe some resources to tide you over until you get a new job, but you have to agree to a hundred pages of legalese. And you only have a few hours to decide, not enough time to have a lawyer look at it, even if you could afford to pay a lawyer. You are highly stressed, so even if you take the time to read it, you probably don't take it all in, and feel pressured to agree. And your employer also makes vague threats that about what will happen if you don't sign it, like having a hard time finding a new job or maybe having legal action taken against you.

Does that seem like a free informed decision?

Looking at it another way, anti-disparagement agreements are basically bribes to keep quiet even if disclosure would benefit the general population.

reply
I would argue yes. If you have the choice to sell to sell it, you can be forced to sell it.

One can still give up their basic rights if they so choose. The woman in question can cease from disparaging Meta for the rest of her life. A person can opt to enter in to being a slave to another for the rest of their life. I can choose to follow one religion or another or none at all. But one should never have those options taken from them.

reply
In Germany, this sort of thinking is the reason you can't release anything into the public domain. People are presumed to be too stupid to be trusted with the decision to renounce their copyright and so they are "protected" from this possibility.
reply
Did you mean to say "presumed to be too stupid, or too easily conned or coerced"?
reply
Have you ever been conned into releasing something into the public domain? Me either. Its not a real problem. But signing over the rights to some corporate party? That happens all the time, and is permitted in Germany. Germany is being very stupid here. They're letting abstract reasoning about principles blind them to common sense (many such cases in German history.)
reply
Which means it’s not a right
reply
In a normal society courts should be protecting from signing away basic freedoms
reply
That would also preclude non-disclosure agreements. I'm curious if you also find those unreasonable?
reply
Both non-disparagement and non-disclosure agreements should—just as many jurisdictions have for non-compete agreements, which do not even implicate free speech the way the others do—be sharply limited as a matter of public policy (non-disparagement even moreso than non-disclosure.) Both are routinely used to inflict public harm for private gain, and government enforcement of either is in tension with freedom of speech; while there is a legitimate case to be made that non-disclosure agreements within certain bounds have a certain degree of necessity in enabling legitimate business, this is a much harder case to make for non-disparagement agreements, at least for ones that are not temporally bounded within an active business relationship.
reply
Depends on what type of non-disclosure. Disclosing technical guarded and not publicly known technical know-how - I am ok with those. Disclosing that boss treats people like trash should be allowed and I think lawmakers should have enough intelligence in their brains to make laws accordingly.
reply
> Disclosing technical guarded and not publicly known technical know-how - I am ok with those.

I would love to see NDAs for trade secrets limited in a way that incentivizes companies to rely on patent protection instead, where the system is set up to ensure that knowledge eventually becomes public record and freely usable by anyone. It would be very interesting to see how eg. the tech industry would change if trade secret protection were limited to a meaningfully shorter duration than patents.

reply
I get that you're not a free speech maximalist, but that's still signing away a basic freedom.
reply
What are 'basic freedoms'?
reply
If you don't believe that people should be able to sell themselves into slavery, you should start by offering your list. If you do believe that people should be able to sell themselves into slavery, then unlimited freedom of contract is a basic freedom for you.

What you shouldn't do is pretend not to understand.

reply
I'm not the one making a positive claim. I haven't even claimed such rights exist so why on earth would be the expectation be that I list them? You've assumed that I believe in this shared fiction.

We sell ourselves into a form of slavery every day. Some would argue that is a big driver of our current society and way of life.

reply
You can’t get people to try to break out of a prison they don’t think they are in
reply
Speech, for example.
reply
Those that are deemed inalienable.
reply
Freedom of speech is far from inalienable. Non-disclosure agreements are most relevant, but every country on earth also has at least some regulations regarding hate speech, threats, incitement, purjury, or defamation — not to mention security clearances or state secrets.
reply
And that's where the complexity arises in this argument that I don't know how to resolve. In the case of this woman vs Meta, to me it doesn't "feel" legal that one disparaging comment costs $50K. It feels that there's something wrong here that should not be allowed despite her entering the agreement. Maybe I don't believe she should have been allowed to enter the agreement.

But I understand that my point of view doesn't match legal code. Just feels fucked.

reply
To be clear, I do agree with everything you've said here — I just disagree that freedom of speech is an inalienable right, and I don't think there's ever been a time or place where it has actually been considered one.

If it were up to me, I would require non-disparagement agreements to be standalone contracts, and cap the damages a company can claim to the amount they paid you to sign it. Once that number is met, the contract is void. That way the company only gets as much leverage as they're willing to pay for.

reply
deleted
reply
The majority of people will self-alienate themselves in exchange for power or even just survival

Think of a person digging their own grave under threat of immediate murder (tons of well documented examples). This is the maximum self alienation: do work to make life easier for your oppressors.

In my 41 years it seems like the majority of people are content digging their own graves

reply
Please enumerate these inaliable basic freedoms that I should not be able to deal in.
reply
If you'd like to research basic freedoms, I would suggest starting here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_rights

reply
It's very boring for you not to actually commit to anything specific, so that you don't have to defend it.
reply
There's a basic list on that page. There are many LLMs out there that you can discuss this with if you want to waste your own time. I'm not going to waste any more time with this thread. You have an attitude that says "Debate me but you'll never convince me". If you'd like to learn something, there are many resources on the internet available to you.
reply
I'm glad we're all here under the goal of making non-boring statements for 0x3f
reply
We're all essentially here under the goal of making non-boring statements for each other, yes. That is the general purpose of an online forum.
reply
The US will not permit you to sign yourself into slavery, as an example.
reply
Only for a very narrow definition of slavery. Arguably constructing society such that it costs so much to just exist (for example, by artificially restricting housing supply) and thus you have to work is not all that different to slavery. I would say the dollar is but company scrip with better PR.
reply
> Only for a very narrow definition of slavery.

Good. We have "enumerate[d] [at least one] inaliable basic [freedom] that I should not be able to deal in".

reply
Well now you're equivocating. We've established one that you can't deal in in a specific country. _Should_ is quite a different question. You can't establish should by establishing is.
reply
Don't hurt your back moving those goalposts. Lift with hips.
reply
America = literally the whole world and everyone in it so QED inalienable rights exist

Well I wouldn't call it a strong argument...

Nonetheless the goalposts were never shifted. The question was always 'should'. So I'm very confused by your confusion.

reply
What proof, exactly, would you accept for "should"?

Should is an opinion. You're welcome to feel "slavery should be legal". I'm welcome to (and should) think you're insane for holding that opinion.

reply
> Should is an opinion.

Well that would seem to make the rights in question not particularly inalienable. In fact if we're talking about the US slavery _is_ legal in certain contexts. So it's definitely not inalienable. Only in the context of voluntary agreements between private citizens.

reply
> Well that would seem to make the rights in question not particularly inalienable.

You should read up on what "inalienable rights" are about. Even the first couple of paragraphs on Wikipedia will suffice.

They get violated all the time and need constant protecting.

reply
You're taking a strangely ethnocentric view here. I don't take the founding fathers' writings as a form of scripture. Those are but bare assertions.
reply
You're taking a strangely US-centric view here.

This has nothing to do with the founding fathers. The Ancient Greeks talked about natural law. The UN passed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. 193 countries have ratified at least parts of it.

Again, I beg you to at least read a paragraph or two off Wikipedia.

reply
The specific term 'inalienable' is heavily associated with the founding of the US. The others are different things but not very different in substance, i.e. ultimately some guy claimed these are universal rights. Wikipedia is not going to make appeal to authority work any better as an argument, I'm afraid.
reply
Clear ignorance again.

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...

> Preamble

> Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world...

reply
Is the US not in the UN now or something? The whole UNUDHR was an Eleanor Roosevelt project. She literally drafted the documents! At least look it up before being rude. You need to get the knowledge before applying the sass.
reply
"An American helped convince 193 countries of something, therefore it's invalid" is a take, I suppose.
reply
Well this was really just a sub-argument about whether 'inalienable' is an Americanism, which it is. The real point about 'natural' rights, or whatever term you've switched to using, is that they're simply assertions. Not supported by anything else. Doesn't really matter who is asserting them. The argument takes the same form, and is equally bunk.
reply
> whatever term you've switched to using

They're synonyms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inalienable_right goes to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rights_and_legal_right.... This happens a lot in English.

"Natural rights are those that are not dependent on the laws or customs of any particular culture or government, and so are universal, fundamental and inalienable..."

> is that they're simply assertions

So's "we don't have natural rights".

reply
> So's "we don't have natural rights".

That's the null hypothesis. There are no teapots orbiting the sun, either.

reply
How fascinating it is that your opinion is the only one not requiring support.

I think I will take feedback from someone who’s heard of a thesaurus.

reply
Free speech?
reply
So I can't sign an exclusive book deal? Or write for a newspaper?
reply
Exclusive book deals tend to have defined timespans.

I'm not clear on the newspaper example; do you think reporters aren't allowed to write stuff outside their job? Plenty of reporters publish books.

reply
No I just mean in the sense that I give over the rights to my own words. I can't repeat them outside of the context that I've agreed to. They were both examples of the same kind of agreement. They'll keep those rights well after I'm dead, by the way.
reply
You're not giving over the rights, you're selling the right to profit from them under contract.

You can argue that contract law is essentially a battle of relative political and economic power, and IP and employment contracts will always be unfair unless limits are set by statute and enforced enthusiastically.

And personally I would.

But generally you're signing away the rights to specific text, not the insights or commentary in that text, and if you freelance there's nothing to stop you making your points through some other channel, and/or some other text.

If you're a full-time employee then the usual agreement is that your words (code) are work product and owned by your employer, and you're in that situation because your political and economic power is relatively limited.

reply
> Exclusive book deals tend to have defined timespans

Good. We have "enumerate[d] [at least one] inaliable basic [freedom] that peopke should be able to deal in".

Of course, we can quibble over the permissible duration of such timespans, but I think the point has been made clear.

reply
Just to be clear: you're asserting that "there are some inalienable rights" can be debunked by the existance of one that is not inalienable?

That's not how this works.

reply
You asserted that free speech was an inalienable right, they provided an example showing it's not.

They also could have mentioned: NDA's, hate speech, threats, incitement, purjury, defamation, security-clearances or state secrets.

reply
> You asserted that free speech was an inaliable right, they provided an example showing it's not.

No.

"Inalienable right", like the "right to bear arms", has never meant you get to do anything with it. Free speech doesn't extend to defamation; free expression doesn't extend to murder; freedom of the press doesn't extend to sneaking into the CIA's archives, freedom of movement doesn't apply to jails.

I'm of the opinion that arbitration clauses and non-disparagement agreements of the scope involved in this particular case are unconsionable, because they unreasonably infringe upon such inalienable rights.

reply
You're proving my my point, the right to bear arms is a constitutional right, not an inalienable right. Please look up the definition of inalienable.
reply
Some assert it's inalienable.

(I don't agree - re-read my wording carefully - but some certainly take that position. My point: those who do still tend to take the "but there are limits!" position on, say, home-brewed nukes.)

In each case, though - constitutional right, human right, inalienable right, natural right - the fundamental concept of "sometimes two people have rights that conflict, and society has to resolve this" applies.

reply
We're talking about whether people should be permitted to sign away their right to speech. I think you've conceded that such is permissible at least for a limited duration. Shall we quibble the permissible durations, or are you done?
reply
Sure; we have to resolve conflicts between two sets of people with rights sometimes. The inalienable right to free speech doesn't extend to defamation and fraud; the inalienable right to freedom of movement doesn't apply to jailed murderers.

Unconscionability is a bit like obscenity; hard to perfectly define, but sometimes quite clear.

reply
> The inalienable right to free speech doesn't extend to defamation and fraud

You have a strange definition of "inalienable".

reply
Not really; it's a conflict between two groups and sets of rights.

I have the inalienable right to not be defamed and defrauded.

Now we have to resolve the contradiction as a society. That it's sometimes messy doesn't mean we ditch the concept of rights.

reply
Those are not inalienable rights either, they're legal rights. Here, courtesy of Cornell law:

"An inalienable right is a fundamental entitlement inherent to every person that cannot be sold, transferred, or taken away by the government. These rights, often called natural rights are considered essential, cannot be surrendered by the individual, and are not dependent on laws."

Just Google "is x an inalienable right" next time.

reply
An inalienable right can also be a legally protected one.

"Inalienable" is an assertion; a should.

The right not to be genocided is inalienable. It gets violated still.

reply
Freedom of speech is that you are allowed to express any viewpoint, not make any sounds with your mouth or disclose any information.
reply