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The grandparent is definitely wrong on (3). Yes, coding is a killer product, I agree with you.

On (2), I agree with you for local models. BUT, there are also the open source Chinese models accessible via open-router. Your argument ("don't hold a candle to SOTA models") does not hold if the comparison is between those.

On (1), I agree more with the grandparent than with your assessment. Yes, OpenAI and Anthropic are killing it for now, but the time horizon is very short. I use codex and claude daily, but it's also clear to me that open source is catching up quickly, both w.r.t. the models and the agentic harnesses.

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Open models are good but if you need a $10k GPU to run them then 99% of people are better of subscribing to OAI or CC.

Nowadays I also feel model performance matters less than the design of the tool harness, inference speed, and the other systems that surround a typical coding model.

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>BUT, there are also the open source Chinese models accessible via open-router.

I thought so myself, but after burning a lot of money on OpenRouter in a few days I just subscribed to Z.ai's Coding Pro plan and using the subscription is much, much friendlier with my wallet.

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> the open source Chinese models accessible via open-router

And? They aren't as good as SOTA models. Even the SOTA model provider's small models aren't worth using for many of my coding tasks.

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In my limited experience with it, GLM 5.1 is on par with Opus 4.6.
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I used GLM5 quite a bit, and I'd say it was maybe on par with Sonnet for most simple to medium tasks. Definitely not Opus though. Didn't test super long context tasks, and that's where I would expect it to break down. A recent study on software maintainability still showed Sonnet and Opus were peerless on that metric, although GLM series of models has been making impressive gains.
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I don't want to respond to 100 comments about the same thing, and this one happens to be on top, so, in my humble opinion:

(1): You don't have to be an Ed Zitron disciple to infer that OpenAI and Anthropic are likely overvalued and that Nvidia is selling everyone shovels in a gold rush. AI is a game-changing technology, but a shitty chat interface does not a company make. OpenAI and Anthropic need to recoup astronomical costs used in training these models. Models that are now being distilled[1] and are quickly becoming commoditized. (And frankly, models that were trained by torrenting copyrighted data[2], anyway.) Many have been calling this out for years: the model cannot be your product. And to be clear, OpenAI/Anthropic most definitely know this: that's why they've been aquihiring like crazy, trying to find that one team that will make the thing.

(2): Token prices are significantly subsidized and anyone that does any serious work with AI can tell you this. Go use an almost-SOTA model (a big Deepseek or Qwen model) offered by many bare-metal providers and you'll see what "true" token prices should look like. The end-state here is likely some models running locally and some running in the cloud. But the current state of OpenClaw token-vomit on top of Claude is fiscally untenable (in fact, this is why Anthropic shut it down).

(3): This is typical Dropbox HN snark[3], of which I am also often guilty of. I really don't think AI coding is a killer product and this seems very myopic—engineers are an extreme minority. Imo, the closest we've seen to something revolutionary is OpenClaw, but it's janky, hard to set up, full of vulnerabilities, and you need to buy a separate computer. But there's certainly a spark there. (And that's personally the vertical I'm focusing on.)

[1] https://www.anthropic.com/news/detecting-and-preventing-dist...

[2] https://media.npr.org/assets/artslife/arts/2025/complaint.pd...

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224

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> And to be clear, OpenAI/Anthropic most definitely know this: that's why they've been aquihiring like crazy, trying to find that one team that will make the thing.

Anthropic is up to $30B annual recurring revenue. I wish I had failing business models like that.

> Token prices are significantly subsidized and anyone that does any serious work with AI can tell you this. Go use an almost-SOTA model (a big Deepseek or Qwen model) offered by many bare-metal providers and you'll see what "true" token prices should look like.

I'm not sure what think you are saying here, but if you look at the providers for both "almost-SOTA model (a big Deepseek or Qwen model)" or at the price for Claude on AWS Bedrock, Azure or on GCP you will quickly see inference is very profitable.

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> Anthropic is up to $30B annual recurring revenue. I wish I had failing business models like that.

And profit? A company can have $300B annual revenue, and still be a failing business if it's making a loss.

Somewhere along the line we seem to have forgotten this basic fact. Eventually there will be no more rounds of funding to feed the fire.

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Anthropic has raised $64B in total since they were founded.

Even if you say we are going to measure profit in the very special hacker news way of looking at money taken in from customer revenue against money invested and we say they can't do things like counting building data centers or buying GPUs as capital expenses and instead have to count them against profit then in 2 years time they will have made more money than they have taken in investment.

That is extraordinary.

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Costs can always be optimized, revenue is much harder to optimize.
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It is easy to get 30B when you resell something you buy for 50B
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The proverbial "50B" is investment in next year's model. The current model cost under "30B", and therefore "is profitable". It is a bet on scaling, yes, but that's been common throughout the industry (see, eg, Amazon not being profitable for many years but building infrastructure)
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Also see the Dario interview with Dwarkesh:

> If every year we predict exactly what the demand is going to be, we’ll be profitable every year. Because spending 50% of your compute on research, roughly, plus a gross margin that’s higher than 50% and correct demand prediction leads to profit. That’s the profitable business model that I think is kind of there, but obscured by these building ahead and prediction errors.

(a lot more at the link)

https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/dario-amodei-2?open=false#%C2%A70...

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Except the rumors are they subsidize even the inference, not that they have capex in training.
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The maths shows inference is very profitable. Look at how Google/AWS/Azure change the same rates as Anthropic does for running Claude models.
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You're missing the forest for the trees. Per-token pricing is irrelevant when you're just trying to get shit done. I pay 20 bucks a month for OpenAI, but I use likely $200+ a month of tokens just on the coding (and I'm just looking at the raw tokens, this is ignoring all the harnessing on their end). Even OpenAI has said that they're losing money on the 200-dollar subscriptions[1]. This is not a viable business model. Why do you think they are introducing ads this year[2]?

[1] https://fortune.com/2025/01/07/sam-altman-openai-chatgpt-pro...

[2] https://openai.com/index/testing-ads-in-chatgpt/

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> Go use an almost-SOTA model (a big Deepseek or Qwen model) offered by many bare-metal providers and you'll see what "true" token prices should look like.

Qwen3.5-122B-A10B is $0.26 input, $2.08 output. Where's the subsidy? It's ten times cheaper than Opus. Or did you mean that we're subsidizing their training? But then "OpenClaw token-vomit on top of Claude is fiscally untenable" makes no sense.

Yeah, I don't know where you got your costs from. Bare metal providers are significantly cheaper than Anthropic.

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Maybe he's comparing the renting price of a bare metal server on its own, and doesn't realise how drastically cheaper they are to batch together for an API provider.
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