Thanks. In contrast to Smalltalk or Lisp, Oberon is originally a native language, and the Oberon System originally was conceived as the native operating system of the Ceres computer used for teaching in the nineties at ETH Zurich. So there is no image as in Lisp or Smalltalk. Oberon lives on today in the form of various dialects and derivatives (such as my Oberon+ or Micron languages, see https://github.com/rochus-keller/oberon and https://github.com/rochus-keller/micron). There are indeed Oberon implementations which run on Java or ECMA 335 runtimes, which is possible due to the very restricted pointer handling and memory management of Oberon.
replySmalltalk too was originally a full OS running on bare metal back in the Xerox Alto days (1972-ish).
replyThe "OS" (or rather "kernel") was actually the VM which was implemented in microcode and BCPL. The Smalltalk code within the image was completely abstracted away from the physical machine. In today's terms it was rather the "userland", not a full OS.
replyIt's refreshing to see Oberon getting some love on the Pi. There’s a certain 'engineering elegance' in the Wirthian school of thought that we’ve largely lost in modern systems.
replyWhile working on a C++ vector engine optimized for 5M+ documents in very tight RAM (240MB), I often find myself looking back at how Oberon handled resource management. In an era where a 'hello world' app can pull in 100MB of dependencies, the idea of a full OS that is both human-readable and fits into a few megabytes is more relevant than ever.
Rochus, since you’ve worked on the IDE and the kernel: do you think the strictness of Oberon’s type system and its lean philosophy still offers a performance advantage for modern high-density data tasks, or is it primarily an educational 'ideal' at this point?
I don't know. Unfortunately we don't have an Oberon compiler doing similar optimization as e.g. GCC, so we can only speculate. I did measurements some time ago to compare a typical Oberon compiler on x86 with GCC and the performance was roughly equivalent to that of GCC without optimizations (see https://github.com/rochus-keller/Are-we-fast-yet/tree/main/O...). The C++ type system is also pretty strict, and on the other hand it's possible and even unavoidable in the Oberon system 3 to do pointer arithmetics and other things common in C behind the compiler's back (via the SYSTEM module features which are not even type safe). So the original Oberon syntax and semantics is likely not on the sweet spot of systems programming. With my Micron (i.e. Micro Oberon, see https://github.com/rochus-keller/micron/) language currently in development I try for one part to get closer to C in terms of features and performance, but with stricter type safety, and on the other hand it also supports high-level applications e.g. with a garbage collector; the availabiltiy of features is controlled via language levels which are selected on module level. This design can be regarded as a consequence of many years of studying/working with Wirth languages and the Oberon system.
replyThere was a couple of PhD theses at ETH Zurich in the 90s on optimizations for Oberon, as well as SSA support. I haven't looked at your language yet, but depending on how advanced your compiler is, and how similar to Oberon, they might be worth looking up.
replyI'm only aware of Brandis’s thesis who did optimizations on a subset of Oberon for the PPC architecture. There was also a JIT compiler, but not particularly optimized. OP2 was the prevalent compiler and continued to be extended and used for AOS, and it wasn't optimizing. To really assess whether a given language can achieve higher performance than other languages due to its special design features, we should actually implement it on the same optimizing infrastructure as the other languages (e.g. LLVM) so that both implementations have the same chance to get out the maximum possible benefit. Otherwise there are always alternative explanations for performance differences.
replyIs anyone attempting to implement Oberon on LLVM IR? Sounds like a fun project
replyyou can check also XDS modula2/oberon-2 programming system.
is an optimizing complier
https://github.com/excelsior-oss/xds
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