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I feel like that was what made Google Plus better and yet because it was Google shoving everything into Google Plus itself to force numbers… it failed. Circles in Google Plus is the most underrated thing I have ever seen. You can basically group friends under specific labels, so if you want to only share some posts / photos with family, only family will see it, wanna share posts with former and current coworkers? Have at it. Or share with multiple circles or everyone / global.

Its a damn shame Google nerfed it after forcing it on people who werent asking to be forced into it. Google Plus was a very tech heavy Social Media platform, if Google had half a brain they could have built their own serious LinkedIn alternative.

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I completely agree. Circles were great. Unfortunately, they're one of the things that killed Google+. I remember reading an article from one of the creators of Google+ years and years ago. They talked about how asymmetric friending (Alice adding Bob to one of her circles didn't add Alice to any of Bob's circles) prevented the viral network effect that Facebook was able to achieve.

It's a damn shame. I feel like Google giving up on Google+ and Microsoft giving up on Windows phones were both mistakes.

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> and Microsoft giving up on Windows phones were both mistakes.

You hit me right in the gut, are we long lost siblings? Lol

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Windows Phone was so so good - it was THE phone I recommended to users who were on feature phones/non-smart phones because the UX was so simple and clean (and obvious) - with a side effect that if you HAD a smart phone before (Palm, Apple, Android, BlackBerry, the UX was contrary to what you were used to).

Windows Phone died because MS didnt do enough to build the app ecosystem, and bailed out too soon. I also feel webOS was a lost opportunity too - in some ways it was just too ambitious for the hardware of its time.

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I loved the Windows Phone too.

I was one of two non-MSFT I knew of that had one.. and I bought it because an MSFT employee was showing it off and I was convinced. The concept of Tiles was great and Cortana was respectable. It felt comparable to Siri and way better than Google.

I used it for a couple years until the apps I needed started disappearing due to lack of updates.

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I really wish I had messed with Windows Phone when it was a thing. They were the only ones not to just ship a clone of an existing interface ASAP. But it was closed source and offered no advantages for carriers or device makers compared to Android.

WebOS needed WASM and a lot more to be successful. I think WASM/WASI is to the point that the next major platform build out can use it.

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webOS was a bit ahead of its time - it does live on in LG TV's where its done quite well.
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I never tried a Windows phone - but everyone I knew with one loved them. (Most of the owners worked for Microsoft...)

I loved Google+ - it was like Facebook without the dark patterns. So of course, nobody was on it (which I didn't dislike exactly).

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i think it was just poorly implemented. i didn't use the circles feature because all my friends would be in one circle and my family were all offline, but i still had to deal with it for no personal benefit

opt in probably would have been better, like just default everyone to one circle and make it obvious how to split them up after you're a bit more comfortable with the platform

they made a bunch of other obvious blunders like attempting to force real names and spread them to youtube, mandatory account linkage etc etc but i think there were probably just too many conflicting high level voices at google trying to set direction

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I had a few different circles depending on if friends were interested in running, cycling, hiking or computers and then I could make posts that could be just for specific groups.
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Facebook has that feature and has for many years. That is a good idea, but there are many bad ideas that negate the good ideas even when the good ones are implemented.
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it goes back even further - LiveJournal, which was a social network like any other - more importantly without algorithmic optimization.
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It's a great idea in principle, but it requires some manual work, which most users aren't gonna bother with.
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> it requires some manual work, which most users aren't gonna bother with

Dowsing a user's circles from their public information and Gmail inbox seems like a perfect task for AI.

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Exactly.

Self-defining all of the semantic grouping metadata was too much onus on the user.

Not everybody has the patience to curate and groom their social circle labels and memberships. That feels like a full time job.

I spent way too much time stressing over how to define my "circles". It was not a good experience.

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I don’t think it’s about the effort needed. The basic idea is just too complex for most people.
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It would be easy to send a notification “you haven’t interacted with Sally in 6 months, so we’re removing her from your network. Click here to add her back” or something along those lines and nobody would be the least confused. They’d probably be annoyed often enough though.
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What killed Google+ is the same thing that prevented Bluesky from ever being good. They had a brief window where everyone wanted to use it, and they kept it locked behind a hard to get invite system for months and months.
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It was worse than that: they forced _everyone_ into it, whether or not you had any interest in using it.

They did this before having notification control or usable filtering[1] so what this meant was for most of year, you'd login to Gmail and see the upper right notification badge be !!!LOOK AT ME!!! red only to click on it and see it was telling you that some dude who no-showed on a Craigslist sale 10 years ago in a different city had been forced to “join” Google+. Even worse, it took like 6 months for their iOS developers to give you any control over push notifications so you got all of that as push notifications until you deleted the app.

They also annoyed key communities like Google Reader users: that wasn't their largest popular social network but it was one which people actually liked and it disproportionately skewed towards people like journalists, bloggers, etc. who recommended technology to other people. The conversion to Google+ was really clumsy and they did things like replacing the popular Reader commenting system with a Google+ “integration” which didn't work at all on mobile devices[2], which meant that a ton of influential people had a really negative experience and told everyone they knew about it.

1. The “circles” idea reportedly worked well when it was Google employees using it internally but it relied on the poster picking an audience for a post, which failed in the real world when the spammiest people think everyone is interested in their every word.

2. The dialog was sized for a desktop display so the post button was inaccessible off the screen.

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> the same thing that prevented Bluesky from ever being good.

That's not it at all. Bluesky is simply just too political.

X is too political. Bluesky is too political. When you focus on content and sharing and having a good time, then the network takes off.

I'm not saying politics isn't important. I'm saying it can't become the miasma that pervades the entire service and makes the entire point of the social network complaining about politics, polarized attacks, etc.

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Bluesky is political because their invite-only on-boarding process for months meant that only really tight knit subgroups and subcultures found their way in. By the time your average person who just wanted to stop seeing ads about Great Replacement Theory or whatever found their way into Bluesky, it was chock full of furry art, "fandom" posting from teenagers on the spectrum, and political rambling from people who haven't touched grass since puberty.
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How does having a really tightly controlled and/or lengthy invite period translate into the user base being of one particular political viewpoint? I'm not seeing the causal link. Even if I take at face value your claim that "only really tight knit subgroups and subcultures found their way in," I still don't see how these subgroups or subcultures would necessarily have the same political views.
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Well it self selected for left wing ones.

My point is normal people who aren't extremely online and part of 10 Discord servers with an internet friend network who can hook them up with an invite didn't get into Bluesky. Instead the people who, well, did, got the invites. Obviously the extremely online right didn't because they had other places to go and weren't welcomed by the bsky admins.

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Twitter going so far right helped select Bluesky and Mastodon moving further left.
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“Well it self selected for left wing ones” didn’t answer my question in the least, so I’ll just assume your claim is false.
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Early BlueSky was seeded by furries, the trans community, socialist Democrats, and left-wing folks fleeing an overly Republican/MAGA Twitter.

The system was invite-based, meaning these people invited their friends. And those people invited their friends of friends.

The community was seeded by a very political base at its inception. The general feed the average user saw when opening the app was activist-political, furry art, dildos, and outrage. This continued for a year, I think?

This is not very welcoming to a general audience, and it severely knee-capped Bluesky's growth trajectory.

Here's the front page of Bluesky for a new user today:

https://imgur.com/a/QzBdust

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Yes, I understand now that this is what the poster I was replying to was saying. But it's different from that poster's original argument, which I took to be that there was something inherent to the invite process that resulted in a politically one-sided user base.

But really, it's that Twitter shifted hard-right to literal Nazism, and so people left. Which is completely understandable.

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>there was something inherent to the invite process that resulted in a politically one-sided user base

At no point did I make this claim. Bluesky's user base self selected for left wing viewpoints because Twitter had taken a hard right turn and Bluesky, mostly by way of moderation, was unwelcoming to the right wing. So left leaning people had a reason to leave Twitter and a friendly platform. Right wing people had no reason to leave Twitter and a hostile platform with Bluesky.

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[flagged]
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“Too political” usually means “not my politics” IME.
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Maybe? But that doesn't really have much to do with my point.
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I was agreeing with you
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>Twitter is a haven for people who are fans of generating non-consensual porn of others, white supremacy/white nationalism, murder of innocent civilians, and other reprehensible things.

It's really not. It's where everyone is right now. The Trots and Maoists. The demsoc local politicians. The vegan militant organizers. Etc. You can also include whatever shitty group you want to cherry pick to make your disingenuous ass argument. And when you do, post it to Bluesky where people can get a dopamine rush with you as they shake their heads and smile and post how horrible it is.

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Based on this reply and others, it seems Twitter is frying your brain and you should probably stop using it.

Care to actually refute my point instead of saying “nuh uh” and lobbing some childish insults my way?

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I never claimed to actively use Twitter anywhere in here.
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That still doesn't actually address my argument. And I assumed you did, since you said "It's where everyone is right now" (which is objectively false). So, as an aside, do you actively use Twitter? Or are you going to dodge that too?
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Thats not the only thing that killed google+ though. I think their aggressive push was their demise, forced all their users to use google+, mangled with youtube and gmail accounts and all that pissed off a lot of users.
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Apparently Facebook does/did support posting to certain groups? Maybe the UI isn't great as I never knew it was possible but a workmate told it was.
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As I understand my FB account, I can easily post to a group. But I can't easily adjust the membership of that group. Otoh, I post maybe once a year, so who knows.
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You can but it's a very cumbersome UX.
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> Circles in Google Plus is the most underrated thing I have ever seen.

Facebook now has 'Audience', which is quite analogous to 'Circles'

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Messages group chats are the circles now.
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Also Discord - tons of people use Discord as a social network and keep up with friends. I must have 5 friend groups that have their own Discords with some overlap.
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WeChat in China was early to implement friend group-based posting
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Circles was a lot of busy work though
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I can only imagine someone looking over my shoulder on vacation to see what I'm posting: "oh, you have a 'close friends' group; why am I not in it?"

Arbitrary labels are great ... until they're not.

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Arbitrary labels make it really easy to give groups of close friends silly in-joke names rather than "close friends"...
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> If connections expired after a year (or 3 months or 6 months), people would have to maintain their social relevance, and it becomes a natural editorial filter, keeping the overall network fresh and relevant.

This is a weird comment because it treats connections like they're only an asset for the person being followed.

The people doing the following aren't even considered. They're supposed to continuously re-follow the people they want to follow?

I don't see any upsides to this for anyone. I'm not reading social media every day. I don't want the network to automatically expire my follows and force me to remember and re-discover who I want to follow all the time. I don't want the people I follow feeling like they desperately need to pursue relevance instead of just being themselves.

If Selena Gomez is "socially irrelevant" then why do you care that she has 400 million followers? What does this take away from you in any way?

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Because I don't want to see all her posts on my timeline anymore. I have to actively unfollow her to do that, which is more work.

That's more work than even following someone, because it asks for confirmation or pops up a separate modal to unfollow, which it doesn't do for following someone. And so I don't even bother.

This leads to stale social networks and algorithmic timelines.

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>keeping the overall network fresh and relevant

What does this mean? Like in practical feature terms and benefit to the end user?

Your system kills the social networks ability to act as someone's modern day rolodex of contact information of previous acquaintances. What do they get in exchange for that?

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Social networks aren't rolodexes. They're newspapers.
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As someone who's been working on social networking and adjacent services for over 15 years, hard disagree.

An ideal social network should not have any agency of its own, period. If your feed is too crowded because you follow too many people, then so be it. It's your problem, you did this to yourself. Only you know how to fix it for yourself, if you do even want it fixed in the first place.

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real world social networks have agency if you define ephemerality as agency. It's an accident of digital platforms that nothing is ever forgotten, not a feature inherent to normal human relations. In the real world you drop phone numbers, you forget events, unused relationships atrophy. And that's not a bug, forgetting is a feature. For anyone who isn't convinced of this, Black Mirror did an admirable job in its first season putting the pathologies of social technologies on display that record everything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Entire_History_of_You

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It can be argued that humans actually hate forgetting things. That's why we invented writing. Spoken language lets us share arbitrarily abstract thoughts with others. But human memory is imperfect, so spreading knowledge or memories through word-of-mouth is unreliable. Writing lets us preserve that information as intended by the original author, potentially indefinitely. That's also why we always wanted to be able to record and play back what we hear and see, and our civilization only fairly recently, in terms of history, got advanced enough to have technologies to do that.
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>It can be argued that humans actually hate forgetting things

I agree with you, I don't even think that needs to be argued, we without a doubt hate forgetting things, but we also hate eating our vegetables. We do hate a lot of things we probably shouldn't. We are perpetual hoarders, as a species we have the bad habit that we're not very grateful for the problems we don't have as a consequence of things we don't keep. We're not very good thinking in terms of absence.

That's why Marie Kondo sold a ton of books and got a great Netflix deal simply by teaching people how to throw stuff into the garbage. Civilization is great at record keeping but not doing too well on the social bonding front, or in the words of George Carlin: https://youtu.be/MvgN5gCuLac

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Nah, bad idea. The timeframe of an active connection really varies by age and type. Some important connections are once-every-few-years communications. A year, or two years, etc is too arbitrary.
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For example, I know a gal who foolishly invited her whole friend list to her 26th birthday party.

Did that weird guy from 3rd grade show up? He sure did.

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That… actually seems kinda fun…

I know this wasn’t the point I was supposed to take from your comment but I’m liking this idea

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It was really awkward, I can tell you.

The lesson here is not to invite your whole friend list.

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> The lesson here is not to invite your whole friend list.

Maybe the lesson is to curate your friend list and don’t keep as a “friend” anyone you wouldn’t want to hang out with in person.

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Wait Kim and Selena are irrelevant? I guess I'm not keeping up with the times
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Yeah that was the most out of touch HN comment I’ve seen in a long, long time.

Persistent irrelevant celebrities are a real thing, but those two wouldn’t crack the top 500.

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I mean Kim & Selena will always have a certain level of celebrity status but people like Sydney Sweeney are currently a lot more popular. This is in terms of "are they the most popular people right now" as their instagram count states. They are literally in the top 10 on instagram right now.
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i think you're talking about trending vs popular.

The signals are working as intended. More people will know Kim K than Sweeney because Kim K is more popular and has had more time to be more popular.

why am i talking about kim k on hn lol

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Everything I learned about the Kardashians has been learned against my will.
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haha yeah it makes her so obviously more popular and thus her follower count more "accurate". The parent's point is just hard to hold.

Pretty sure she founded or runs skims? She's Armenian, daughter of a famous lawyer in LA. Kanye. Sex tape. Early with the reality tv. I too did not seek out any of this knowledge!

Most just be a generational thing. Sweeney is still baking. She's actress from euphoria of which i didn't watch. That's about as much as i know. and the jeans ad controversy.

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The signals aren't really working though. It's why algorithms are required, because people want relevance instead of popularity.

Having fading connections equates relevance with popularity.

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I mean… Danny Bonaduce and David Caruso are still celebrities. Not being in the top trending list doesn’t mean they’re irrelevant to culture.
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I honestly can't imagine a stronger indicator of somewhere I don't want to be than it having 400m Kim Kardashian fans
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Don't worry, Facebook already has Fading Connections

You can be married to each other and your posts won't show up on the other person's feed (there's a post on HN about this)

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Xitter was kind of doing the same thing: I can’t see anything my mom posts, but I definitely have to see everything Elon’s mom does.
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X actually kinda solved this. You have 3 tabs which solve all use cases IMO

- For you: Fully algorithmic, shows stuff even from people you don't follow

- Following (recently): Chronological posts from people you follow

- Following (popular): Algorithmic ordering just from people you follow

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> Xitter

Is this an alternate front-end (Nitter) or shorthand for X/Twitter?

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The latter.
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And the X is pronounced like “sh.”
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I usually call it Xshitter
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The X is pronounced "sh".
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I don’t post on Facebook—HN is my closest analogue. But I assure you my partner(s) have no interest in seeing whatever I post here. Any more than I want to be in the thick of the extended-family group chats. Or, frankly, Facebook.

In that sense, maybe this is Facebook doing its part for domestic harmony…

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I think the point was two people can be the absolute closest of friends, and Facebook will still fail to show them relevant posts.
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It sure justifies the creepy People You May Know though, doesn't it? Which apparently outs sex workers and whatever else

If you're going to move fast and break things and connect the world full steam ahead (and damn the consequences like what happened in Myanmar) your platform better be absolutely rock solid but Facebook doesn't even do that. Its implementation of 'connection' is laughable

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Yup, it's annoying as all hell.
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I am confused... what is harmed by having stale connections? Why would connections be used as an editorial filter?
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Because you don't want to see posts from stale connections.
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I assume you would just unfollow them if you want to stop seeing their posts? It sounded more like the person I was talking to was more concerned with follower counts being accurate, which doesn’t seem relevant for feed algorithms.
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No, I definitely wouldn't waste the 5 seconds it takes to unfollow someone. I'd rather spend that 5 seconds on the next interesting item instead.
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Followers is a somewhat meaningless metric. Instead look at something like likes or views. The most relevant posts will spread via the algorithm and get the most views.
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> but she's socially irrelevant now.

I'm pretty sure there was a Black Mirror episode about social scoring dictating peoples value/relevance. That was a good place for such a concept, because letting social media sites dictate someone's relevance is just weird. Relevance is a personal opinion, and should remain that way. People are free to stop following others. It works, and isn't dystopian.

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I would hate it if the system removed nodes from my network without my influence. Perhaps a rules engine with user defined criteria would be useful.

Ultimately, users define their network in current-day social media and the relevance of any celebrity or other person within it.

400M people still find Selena Gomez relevant to themselves - she’s simply not relevant to you. I asked Gemini very simply “is Selena Gomez relevant” and it responded with essentially “more in 2026 than ever.”

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Could potentially show you withering connections you havent interacted with, almost an auto recycle bin with the option to dig on there and bring it back later on but dissapear from your main radius of attention if withered.
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Instagram has something like this where it shows you "least interacted with". It seems broken to me though, as it showed me people who I do interact with.
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Slack has started doing this in the last year or two - these are channels that you rarely interact with - want to leave?
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i understand the intent, but selena is still extremely popular, especially amongst women...maybe a bad example
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A comically atrocious take.
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Can you please not post shallow dismissals or call names in HN comments? We're trying for something else here.

You're of course welcome to make your substantive points thoughtfully.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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Apologies.
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