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Private torrent trackers have been doing this for a while. If some number of your downstreams act like shitheads - you get nipped and so do your other downstreams.
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This seems like the best way to handle it. Also, smaller communities. It's cool to do the global thing, but once you have 10k active users you can't moderate it with a team of 5 volunteers.

I think the attestation approach works best if there are different reasons for the punishment. Eg someone inviting a turd doesn't ban the person who invited them. Someone going full ai spam should.

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Was it demonoid? That was like this way back in the day? Needed an invite and if you leeched you were cut.
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This takes it a step further than what you describe. They keep track of who you’ve invited, who they’ve invited and so on and if there’s enough bad leaves on the tree they just cull the entire tree. It’s a somewhat common practice with private trackers
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what.cd was better. You either got an invite where if you tanked your reputation you'd get banned and risk the inviter getting banned too; or you had to take an interview where you got quizzed on how to properly rip music in a variety of methods and how to ascertain between different qualities of rips (like mp3 bitrates to flac cue files).

If you weren't a bellend on what.cd you got access to certain forums where there were even more and better private trackers. Once you built that trust there were social privileges, but if you abuse that trust you got rightfully banned.

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It's tons of them doing this...
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Demonoid was semi private, but yes, most private trackers require you to keep up some kind of seeding ratio to remain a member.
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PGP’s web of trust was kinda bad privacy-wise in some regards, as it basically revealed your IRL social network.

If my PGP public key has 6 signatures and they’re all members of the East Manitoba Arch Linux User Group, you can probably work out pretty easily which Michael T I am.

Are there successful newer designs, which avoid this problem?

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The IRL social network is actually the important part of the trust structure.

The only one of these I've seen that really worked was the Debian developer version: you had to meet another Debian developer IRL, prove your identity, and only then could you get the key signed and join the club.

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> The IRL social network is actually the important part of the trust structure.

For Debian-style applications that are 100% about openness and 0% about secrecy, sure.

But if you want to secure communications between pro-democracy activists in China, or you're a Snowden-like whistleblower wanting to securely communicate with journalists - y'all probably don't want to be vouching for one another's keys.

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You need to meet 2 actually :)
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> Note that "attestation through a web of trust" means something like needing an invite from an existing user.

It's probably better to call this something like vouching and leave "attestation" as the contemptible power grab by megacorps delenda est. The advantage in using the same word for a useful thing as a completely unrelated vile thing only goes to the villain.

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Then how can you have a community that is welcoming to people who are not part of the ingroup?

I want to create a community for immigrants. How would I make it welcoming to recent immigrants for whom no one can vouch?

A web of trust is a wonderful tool, but it's exclusive by design. This is a problem for some communities, even though it makes others much better.

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>Then how can you have a community that is welcoming to people who are not part of the ingroup?

Being welcoming to every random person is by definition not a community, it's a free-for-all mess.

A community means communal interests and values, it's in the name. And to guard those you can't just be accepting everyone without vetoing them. That's how it turns to a shit of spammers and trolls and people who want to hijack it and don't share the original cause/spirit. Has happened to forum after forum...

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We are trying to make new immigrants feel at home. This is the purpose we gather around.
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We were talking about online communities, but still, the same principle applies. If you just let anyone in, there eventually would be less there to feel "at home" about, and more of a disjointed and low trust number of individuals loosely held together by virtue of just being in the same place.
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I agree with you. It’s the problem I can’t crack and it’s why I am letting the idea simmer for so long.

In the end, you need to filter people at the door. You need to keep unpleasant people out and shut down bad behaviour.

I figured that a paid, motivated moderator could be better than a web of trust for this demographic. Maybe enforce a stricter moderation standard on unvetted members. At my scale it might work.

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You'd have to be brutal about culling, uninviting and removing anyone who doesn't look like a good fit.

Or have a two-stage process: run very public, very open events that anyone can sign up to an attend. And then invite specific people that you meet at those events that look like a good fit for your community to your private, community-only event.

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This works if the goal is to create a funnel for making friends. I aim for something closer to Stack Overflow, where people gather to solve shared problems and help each other.

The closest analog I can think of is community-run bike repair workshops. Some people are deeply involved in, and others just have a flat tire.

The closest digital equivalent is the forums of old.

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Some will be fine providing their ID, others can be vouched by members who are fine providing their ID.

This preserves anonymity because for the latter because they’re only known to be “related” to the former, which is a vague hint at their real identity (e.g. they could’ve met in another online community). And the former don’t care, if they want they can vouch an anonymous alt.

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I suppose policing an assembly of strangers is policing an assembly of strangers, both online and in real life.
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> for whom no one can vouch

Spot the fed

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What are you on about
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Which is, funnily (?) enough, how a lot of IRL organizations used to be. And basically don't be of the wrong ethnicity or religion.

It still happens more informally today, of course, but it used to be a pretty (if un-spoken) part of how a lot of WASPy organizations operated to a greater or lesser degree.

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This was cogent in 1910.
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A lot more recently than that--and even today but more under the table. A lot of clubs still excluded members within the past few decades.
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I'm sure there are still cohesive groupings of WASPs, if not large ones or effective at gatekeeping major institutions. --Still a meaningful trope, of course. But to bring it up to date you'd have to diversify, and include, for example, Indian social and professional-recruitment patterns.

Also, I do feel that GP's take is hyperbolic even in the twentieth century. My own background is mostly German immigrants, of various religions and non-religion, and the way I've been told the story none of them faced significant resistance as they moved upward in the various academic and corporate institutions of their choices. These included NASA executives, department heads, etc.

Note that in balancing GP's accusation against WASPs I'm not attempting to address the related, but not precisely complementary, phenomenon of perpetually marginalized groupings.

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