Not quite, they support property rights, which is something that social anarchists implicitly accept as well, they just have a different conception of how that would work. To a right anarchist or libertarian, "Free market absolution" is not an ideology or a goal, it's just the result of private property rights + freedom of association.
Most right-wing libertarians and right-wing anarchists (allow me this even if you disagree with the phrase) are against copyright because it's nonsensical in their conception of what property is and how property rights work. I would assume that left leaning libertarians and social anarchists would also similarly agree that copyright is nonsense but I'm not so sure - the time I spent in those communities have me wondering if they even hate authority and hierarchy, or if they simply desire their own forms of it. Many indeed defend copyright.
The libertarian conception is that groups of people can form hierarchical corporations that compete directly with individuals in the marketplace. The social anarchist conception is usually that people participate in anarchist cooperatives instead. It depends on the anarchist what that means in practice.
> Most right-wing libertarians and right-wing anarchists (allow me this even if you disagree with the phrase) are against copyright because it's nonsensical in their conception of what property is and how property rights work.
Yes, but what they are sorely missing in that argument - in my opinion - is that the problem with copyright is monopoly power; which is also what you get from an unregulated market of corporations. The somewhat regulated market that exists today is obviously dominated by corporations whose anticompetitive participation is predicated on their copyright moats.
> Many [left-leaning libertarians and social anarchists] indeed defend copyright.
Yes, and I'm at least as frustrated about that as with any other political group.
It's incredibly rare to hear copyright's role in our society even described, let alone criticized; even though that role is incredibly significant.
I think a principled libertarian would say that a corporation is nothing but a set of individuals who are working towards the same ends ;)
> It depends on the anarchist what that means in practice.
Does it ever. The gap between a social anarchist and an individualistic one is just as large as the gap between a socialist and a capitalist. Or at least, people argue as if it is :P
> which is also what you get from an unregulated market of corporations
A right leaning libertarian would argue that actual monopolies are rare and short lived, and can only be sustained by something like a state which can prevent competitors from entering the market and otherwise provide support through laws like copyright.
> It's incredibly rare to hear copyright's role in our society even described, let alone criticized; even though that role is incredibly significant.
Yep. It's one of the foundational pillars of our economy.
No, if you are participating in a free market, and a corporation is the most efficient way to provide what you want to buy, then you will end up buying it from the corporation.
But "corporation" is an extremely broad term. Mom and pop businesses are corporations. A friend and I own a corporation that makes games, just the two of us, no employees. But Google, Meta, Amazon, Apple, etc. are also corporations. So "corporation" doesn't capture what's bad about the latter.
> The conclusion of libertarian ideals is that one must both allow corporations to rule over them, and never allow anyone to rule over the corporations.
No, that's not correct. The conclusion of libertarian ideals is that, first, corporations are not people--they don't have the same rights as people do. They are tools that people can use in a free market to more efficiently produce things and create wealth. But that's all they are. If we had that kind of free market, corporations that are larger than many countries probably wouldn't even exist.
Second, corporations like Google, Meta, Amazon, Apple, etc., as they are now, are creatures of government favoritism, not a free market. The original concepts behind those corporations arose in what was more or less a free market--Larry and Sergey didn't need to get anyone's permission to put the original Google on the web, Jobs and Wozniak didn't need to get anyone's permission to build the first Apple computers. But at the scale those corporations are now, they cannot exist without the support and favoritism of governments. (And not just the US government; Apple, for example, would be dead in the water if it did not have the cooperation and support of the Chinese government for its manufacturing base.) And that means they are not products of "libertarian ideals". They might have started out that way, but they didn't, and couldn't, scale that way.
> Without copyright, what would change? First of all, we wouldn't have tech billionaires.
Sure we would. Zuckerberg isn't a billionaire because of copyright. He's a billionaire because he's convinced a substantial fraction of the entire planet that it's perfectly normal, routine, nothing to see here, to have an immensely valuable social networking tool appear by magic on the Internet for free. Same goes for the Google billionaires. Bezos isn't a billionaire because Amazon holds valuable copyrights; he's a billionaire because he sells something valuable, "what I want delivered to my door when I want it" convenience, and he's able to curry government favors so he can bully his supply chain into making that happen. Apple isn't sitting on a huge pile of cash because of copyrights; it's because they make devices that give a significant minority of the market what they want, no fuss, and governments let them manufacture those devices on the cheap while the market they're selling to is upscale.
Of course those companies hold copyrights and patents, and defend them, because that's the legal environment they're operating in. But they'd do just as well, if not better, in a world without copyrights, as long as that world still had governments who would give them the favoritism they get now.
> Of course those companies hold copyrights and patents, and defend them, because that's the legal environment they're operating in.
Yes, that's the thing I'm arguing against. Would you mind considering it for a moment?
> No, if you are participating in a free market, and a corporation is the most efficient way to provide what you want to buy, then you will end up buying it from the corporation.
That's how corporations immediately outcompete individuals. The argument that a corporation should not be treated as an individual is irrelevant, because that is its role in a marketplace. That's who individuals directly compete with!
> Second, corporations like Google, Meta, Amazon, Apple, etc., as they are now, are creatures of government favoritism, not a free market.
They are creatures in a market. Whether that market is free does not define them, only their opportunity. I agree that they get the opportunity of government favoritism, and that that is a significant part of the issue. My point is that it is not the root cause of the problem. In a "free market" that incorporates copyright and patents, any corporation who owns IP can leverage it as a moat, enforced by state violence. The fact that any individual can do the same does not change the power imbalance between an individual and a corporation: it increases it.
Each of the corporations you mentioned leverages a copyright moat as their core valuation. Even Amazon's anticompetitive behavior is predicated on their vertical integration of Amazon the delivery/fulfillment service with Amazon the marketplace. The fact that a marketplace can be owned at all is predicated on copyright.
How so? As I understand it, their terms of service (which of course nobody reads, but they're there) say that anything you post on their sites becomes their property, not yours.
> proprietary software: a category predicated on copyright
No, predicated on not letting other people see the source code. That would be true even if copyrights didn't exist.
> that's the thing I'm arguing against
I'm quite willing to consider arguments against copyrights and patents. But I don't think "abolishing copyrights and patents will make the tech giants behave, or at least take away a bunch of their power" is such an argument. As I said in my previous post, as long as they continue to get the government favoritism they have now, they won't care if copyrights and patents are abolished.
> That's how corporations immediately outcompete individuals.
Again, "corporations" is an extremely broad term. A mom and pop restaurant is a corporation. And yes, it "outcompetes individuals" in the sense that a restaurant where one person tried to do every single task probably wouldn't work very well. But that doesn't make the corporation formed to operate the mom and pop restaurant a bad thing.
> Each of the corporations you mentioned leverages a copyright moat as their core valuation.
I disagree, for reasons I've already given, but I don't see that we're going to resolve that here. I simply don't see copyrights as a significant moat for the big tech giants compared to the other thumbs that are on the scale in their favor.
Yes. Is there something confusing about what I said about that? They own the copyright for your data, and leverage that copyright to isolate your social interactions into their ad platform moat.
> No, predicated on not letting other people see the source code. That would be true even if copyrights didn't exist.
Yes and no. Copyright also disallows us from de-compiling something and publishing any changes. As an aside, if I ever get this subjective computing idea to work (or LLMs pan out), that distinction will be gone, too...
The main argument, though, is that the data, not the platform itself, is what is monopolized. It doesn't matter what software you use to play a video file (Netflix), buy a book (Amazon), or chat with your friends (Facebook), so long as those interactions can be monopolized. Copyright facilitates just that by enforcing the ownership of the data.
> Again, "corporations" is an extremely broad term.
Yes, so? A mom & pop business is not an individual. A fortune 500 company is not an individual. Is one worse than the other? Certainly. Is one a different category of thing? No. That's the point. The individual is not liberated in a marketplace where they must join (or fail to compete with) a corporation.
> I disagree, for reasons I've already given
You disagree that Amazon leverages their ownership of market listing copyrights to facilitate their private ownership of the Amazon marketplace? What else are they?
I don't disagree with your other complaints, but they all seem to be predicated on Amazon already existing as a profitable business with a strong enough political position to abuse. Is that not the case?
> but I don't see that we're going to resolve that here.
Isn't my perspective worth your consideration at all? This whole time, you have centered your focus on nitpicking what a libertarian believes, or what you believe to be the important problem. Do I get a turn? If not, why bother commenting?