upvote
And if you like Lisp and ownership, there's also Carp [1]. It doesn't mimic Rust's features and naming schemes though.

Carp is about 10 years old and has some cool demo's (like SDL for gamedev).

> The key features of Carp are the following:

> * Automatic and deterministic memory management (no garbage collector or VM)

> * Inferred static types for great speed and reliability

> * Ownership tracking enables a functional programming style while still using mutation of cache-friendly data structures under the hood

> * No hidden performance penalties – allocation and copying are explicit > * Straightforward integration with existing C code

> * Lisp macros, compile time scripting and a helpful REPL

[1]: https://github.com/carp-lang/Carp

reply
I like it but confusing that there's also a similar but different loonlang.org.
reply
How does ownership work within the Lisp tree structure?, What is the difference between ownership on this setting and ARC?
reply
ARC refcounts everything (many owners) whereas Loon refcounts only inside immutable shared tree nodes (one owner per handle)
reply
Agreed, a Lisp built around the concept of ownership is much more interesting than just a way to write Rust via S-expressions.
reply
That page is beautiful! What ssg / theme are you using to build it?
reply
Thanks :) Check out the code - it's Loon! https://github.com/ecto/loon/blob/main/web/src/pages/guide/o...
reply
The website seems to have some bugs on mobile, seen on Chrome 147.0.7727.137

- Cannot horizontally scroll the code snippets on homepage when it overflows. The scroll bars appear but swiping the snippet does nothing. - Footer links are unresponsive (loon, GitHub, MIT Licence links) - In the changelog page, scrolling makes the hamburger menu hide release dates behind it - Hamburger close chevron looks misaligned (not sure if this was a deliberate choice)

reply
I like the ubiquitous type inference. It reminds me a bit of ELSA for Emacs Lisp: https://github.com/emacs-elsa/Elsa. In particular, type aware macros have been on my wishlist forever: there's no good reason I shouldn't be able to write, e.g. an elisp or CL/SBCL compiler-macro that specializes an operation based on its inferred type. In normal lisps, it's hard to get even the declared types.

That said, I wish that part of Loon were less coupled to the allocation model though. What made you opt for mandatory manual memory management in an otherwise high-level language? And effects?

There are two things common in language design that, honestly, strike me as unnecessary:

1. manual allocation and lifetime stacking, and

2. algebraic effects.

On 1: I think we often conflate the benefits of Rust-style mutability-xor-aliased reference discipline with the benefits of using literal malloc and free. You can achieve the former without necessitating the latter, and I think it leads to a nicer language experience.

It's not just true that GC "comes with latency spikes, higher memory usage, and unpredictable pauses" in any meaningful way with modern implementations of the concept. If anything, it leads to more consistent latency (no synchronous Drop of huge trees at unpredictable times) and better memory use (because good GCs use compressed pointers and compaction).

On 2: I get non-algebraic effects for delimited continuations. But lately I've seen people using non-flow-magical effects for everything. If you need to talk to a database, pick a database interface and pass an object implementing the interface to the code that needs it. Effects do basically the same thing, but implicitly.

reply
I always saw algebraic effects as a more-ergonomic alternative to functor/applicative/monad for managing I/O and otherwise impure code. If you aren't particularly concerned with that level of purity then yeah it's "just" an indirect way to write an interface.
reply
I've found that in practice, people use effects systems as dynamic-extent globals, like DEFVAR-ed variables in Lisp.

"Oh, it's not a global. Globals are bad. Effects are typed and blend into the function signature. Totally different and non-bad."

No. Typing the effects doesn't help: oh, sure, in Koka I can say that my function's type signature includes the "database connection" effect. Okay, that's a type. Where does the value backing that type come from? Thin air? No, the value backing an effect comes from the innermost handler, the identity of which, in a large program, is going to be hard to figure out.

Like all global variables, the sorts of "effects" currently in vogue will lead to sadness at scale. Globals don't stop being bad when we call them something else: they're still bits of ambient authority that frustrate local reasoning. It's as if everyone started smoking again but called cigarettes "mist popsicles" and claimed that they didn't cause cancer.

There's no way around writing down names for the capabilities we give a program and propagating these names from one part of the program to another. Every scheme to somehow free us from this chore is just smuggling in ambient authority by another name. Ambient authority is seductive. At small scales, it's fine. Better than fine! Beautiful. Then, one day, as your program scales and its maintainership churns, you find you have no idea who implements what.

Software engineering develops antibodies against these seductions. The problem is that the antibodies are name-based, so when we dress up old, bad ideas with new names, we have to re-learn why they're bad.

P.S. You might object, "You're talking about dynamic-extent effects. What about lexically-scoped effects systems?", you might ask. "These fix the problems with dynamic-extent effects."

Sure. Lexical effects are better. That's why every decent language already has a "lexically-scoped effect system". It's called let-over-lambda, or if you squint, an "object". We've come full circle.

reply
Honestly, that's very cool

That was basically my intent with this project, but I took the laziest way to get there lol

reply
deleted
reply