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https://pragprog.com/titles/lhelph/functional-web-developmen...

don't let the title fool you - the first half of the book is just elixir

over the past 8 years this is the book i've used to ramp back up on elixir and it works like a charm every time - i've never finished it

for me, a mark of a good programming book in this tutorial-project style is that I have started it half a dozen times and never finished it because at some point before the end I've been equipped w/ the tools to go off and do my own thing

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FYI, that’s currently available in a Humble Bundle with 16 other PragProg functional programming books: https://www.humblebundle.com/books/ultimate-functional-progr...
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Great find, grabbed that. Thanks!
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Yea I've worked through Elixir in Action and appreciate all book recommendations. My issue is, tutorial style books rarely cover security related concerns.
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what do you mean by 'security related concerns'?
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How to properly build a liveview thats safe against hijacking the websocket phoenix uses for liveviews. You can just do it from the devtools on client side. With regular HTTP requests at least I know what to look out for, with liveview there are almost no resources on how to build a view securely. Like I was able to just call the functions in my module by just addressing them from my browsers console. Just to name an example.
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[1] https://phoenix-live-view.hexdocs.pm/security-model.html

There's a guide in the LiveView docs that walks you through the security model. To be clear, you need to always assume that the user can send you anything. That's a fact of any networked system: Clients need to be assumed to be completely under the control of an evil user, because at the end of the day it is impossible to know whether you're talking to the client you wrote, or some evil program written by an adversary. Any function that acts as a handler for an event/message can be called by the user, at any time. You have to use session/socket state to handle authorization.

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I am well aware of that, its much much easier to account for this with regular HTTP handlers in other stacks though. The issue here is that you can call random functions if you guess the signature correctly. Even authorized/authenticated users can and will missbehave if given the chance.
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To clarify, when you say "random functions", do you mean arbitrary event handlers like "handle_event("my_event")", despite the intended UI not presenting a way to call that event at the moment? Or do you mean any function in the LiveView module?

The latter doesn't seem to be the case, and if it is would be alarming. The former is absolutely the intended behavior. The client can send events to the server, that's how the whole thing works. If certain events shouldn't be available at certain times, you need to check that server side, and that's going to be true in any http handler.

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>"handle_event("my_event")", despite the intended UI not presenting a way to call that event at the moment?

Exactly this, didnt know how to phrase it as it was a while ago where i had this issue.

And thats absolutely not true for any HTTP handler as there's no way for people to easily break out of the intended behavior.

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In most other HTTP handlers I've ever used, event handling would be handled by API endpoints, which are trivial for the user to target directly just by going to the Network tab in their browser's developer console.
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Honestly just build it using the tutorials and sound mind and you're like 80% there.

This may sound crazy but when any interpreter boots up, but I feel it especially with BEAM, that needs to be your "let there be Light" moment. That's your world, that state is yours and only your will decides what changes.

So yes you can call all functions in your module, that's indeed how it works. But that's your module and that function mutates your world.

Just like you filter what people tell you based on your knowledge, you do the same here.

Most of my methods start with guard clauses.

`return if condition_not_met`

Don't touch my state if I don't agree with what you want me to do.

In Ruby it's essential cause that's how we get RuntimeErrors all over the place. In Elixir it's way easier to do, with pattern matching. And easier since state is what enters the function and will be what leaves.

If you keep this in mind you should inherently write safe code, because in protecting your domain through guards you basically close the door for exploitation by unknown means.

I'll give you one example I just thought of. Where I work we run Rails since the time before time, and as such had a lot of technical debt.

Around Rails 5 or 6 what we call `ActionController::Parameters` had a breaking change. Basically this module processes parameters received from HTTP requests.

Beforehand it just wrapped all it got and handed it over to us. But now it expected us to tell it what to expect. And if didn't find what it expected it blew up with a bang!

Horrible for our hundreds of controllers with `controllers * 4` html templates where all the form keys were hidden.

We either had to add the conventiely available `permit!` call, or find the form keys for all the forms, and add `permit(:name, :address,...)`. A shitload of work before AI.

I ended up monkey patching Rails to generate the lists for us instead of crashing. And for the point of this entire story...

The defaults of most frameworks are very safe, but they require the most verbosity so the framework knows what to expect and to guard it. But there always exists easier and faster ways to the same goal, but it's generally a trade. You get ease, you sacrifice some security.

Don't get in that habit and you'll be fine. And spend a lot of time thinking what could go wrong and guard against them.

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I've heard that Phoenix has changed a lot since that book was written. How relevant are those framework specific parts still?
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As someone who learned Elixir during the Phoenix 1.7 release, let me tell you: If you downgrade to Phoenix 1.6 and learn from there, you should be fine.

The upgraded versions are mostly the same, but the differences in Phoenix 1.7 are enough to break the tutorials enough to confuse a newbie. Now, in the post-LLM age, that's not nearly as bad. But it was a real pain when I was learning.

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I invite you to ask on ElixirForum. I have never seen a truly hostile response.

Sometimes posts don't get traction due to ambiguity, and some smelled like "do my homework" so people ignored them.

But every post with a genuine curiosity in it gets answered, as far as I can tell.

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Yea I've posted there twice as far as I remember. You will absolutely get help, whether you understand the answers is a whole different story.

Elixirs community is great. Its just hard to learn because it's not yet widely adopted, there are no (non senior) roles for it and it's a lot of work understanding all the BEAM concepts. A thing just being interesting isn't enough motivation for me to learn, I need a bigger goal but with Elixir there do not seem to be any.

My last experience with it was building something with Phoenix Liveview until I noticed how easily you can hijack the websocket and just spam random commands to your server or temper with payloads (with regular webapps ive built i never had this issue). Which made me quit that project.

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Fair. If you have this friction then it's not worth pursuing.

One thing that really helped me pick it up was saying YOLO and rewriting one part of the business stack from Ruby on Rails to Elixir. It taught me quickly and well.

The official guides are also great and IMO you can get through them all without a rush in two weekends. But again, if you don't want to then don't.

You can also try asking right here in this HN thread. Maybe I or others would be willing to give you a more detailed response.

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When building I couldn't get "what if I have ghost processes", "what if I spawn too many processes", "what if this architecture is bad compared to...", "when to kill processes", "whats the correct restart strategy for this" out of my head... It's so confusing to build for the BEAM that I ultimately gave up on it.
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> It's so confusing to build for the BEAM that I ultimately gave up on it.

Every new paradigm is confusing if you don't put in the work to learn it. That's just how the mind works.

What's important is what you get after you don't give up on it long enough. And that, on BEAM, is a hilariously OP superpower of effortlessly[1] parallelizing and distributing workflows. Then there are Elixir macros and the OTP supervision model. The addition of gradual typing is huge, and when the annotation syntax lands, I will definitely switch to Elixir for everything on the backend.

In any case, the only thing I can tell you is that learning Elixir is worth enduring the confusion. From personal experience, it's just a matter of learning it bit by bit over time - there's a finite set of "confusing" ideas in the OTP/Elixir/BEAM mix, and learning about some of them every other day works wonders over a few months.

[1] An exaggeration - I know! But it does make it much easier to implement parallel and distributed workflows. Recently, most of the important languages finally started getting their m-n concurrency models (from Java to Python), so the BEAM is not as much ahead on SMP, but for distribution (you can send closures to execute on different machines transparently!) it is still in a league of its own.

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Ah, true. You are right this assumes some familiarity. Definitely a gap.

Check this out: https://www.theerlangelist.com/article/spawn_or_not

Written by one of the very best Elixir mentors. I believe it will dispel most (hopefully all) of your doubts and clear things up.

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I'd also suggest skimming this free ebook: https://erlang-in-anger.com
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> "what if I have ghost processes",

I'm not sure what a ghost process is? I guess something that's living beyond its usefulness / isn't supervised, etc? ... I don't speak Elixir, but you can do the equivalent of this Erlang to see everything on the node:

    rp([{X, erlang:process_info(X)} || X <- erlang:processes()]).
Then you'll know what's going on. Caveat: if you have a lot of processes, that's going to use a bunch of memory; for production you probably don't want to use erlang:process_info/2 with specific items instead of the default items. And you might don't want to output something for all the processes if you have a lot of "normal" processes that won't need to be listed.

> "what if I spawn too many processes",

The default limit is 1,048,576, if you want to have more, you can add +P X to the erl command line with a bigger limit? Have your monitoring alert you when you're at ~ 80% of the limit.

> "what if this architecture is bad compared to...",

This probably addresses the real question of your too many process question. If your architecture is bad or if you spawn more processes than a good architecture would, your performance will be bad. If your architecture is really bad, you'll have a hard time solving the problems you're trying to solve. Future you will look upon your system and despair; you may also despair in the present...

Eh, you're going to make bad architecture. BEAM won't solve all your problems. But, if you've got problems it can solve, IMHO, it can be a very nice way to solve them.

> "when to kill processes",

Kill processes (or let them crash) when they misbehave. Kill them (or let them exit normally) when they've done their work and they don't have anything else to do or wait for. When you spawn a process, you'll often have a pretty good idea of the conditions that would lead to its death... Ex: if you spawn a process to handle a connection, it should probably die around the time that the connection ends. If you spawn a process to handle a request, it should probably die when the request is handled. If you spawn a process to listen for connections, it probably should die when you don't want to listen anymore. Etc.

> "whats the correct restart strategy for this"

Well... it depends. Almost never the default strategy. The default strategy is a big foot gun; at least it is for Erlang, maybe they changed it in Elixir. I need zero hands to count the number of times I actually wanted BEAM to stop because some supervised process failed 3 times in a small time frame; but it's happened to me a lot more times than that. For per connection or per request things, the appropriate strategy is not to restart at all; for other things, try to restart a few times quickly then maybe every minute or so is probably sufficient. You'll want some sort of alerting. And if the restart strategy isn't right, you can always console in and poke it.

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I haven't dug into this for a while, bit you should be able to define a catch-all event to return a respond to non-compliant requests . It should be built-in to some degree IMO, but I think it's not an unsolved problem.
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This will not work if a attacker guesses a function signature correctly as the catch all block usually is at the bottom of the module. If you use atoms in the function signature, attackers can just guess them, even if you never intended that function to be reachable from frontend code.

That being said, I am not forced to use liveview, its just that most ressources nowadays use it.

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> whether you understand the answers is a whole different story.

You can always ask follow up questions for clarification, people there are generally really friendly.

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Do you maybe know some Rust? I'm also not that experienced with FP languages, but Gleam felt familiar enough, due to some Rust-isms, to allow me to focus more on the concepts rather than the syntax. Granted, I spent a few afternoons with it, but if I were to pick a FP language again to wrestle my brain into submission, I'd probably go with Gleam due to familiarity.
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I gave up on Rust even quicker than on Elixir haha.

But yea I know about Gleam and I did build some fourier transform stuff with Rust a while back. I like Gleam generally. I am just much much slower with FP and think its extremely unintuituve compared to, say, Go for example.

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why did you give up on Rust?
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Personally I find it horrible to write.
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> I love everything about Elixir, but Elixir constantly makes me doubt myself like no other language. My brain isnt made for functional stuff, but this makes me want to try again.

I experienced this really painfully when I was in college and took a kind of "survey of programming paradigms" course and tried Haskell for the first time. I'd been programming for years by then, and I couldn't believe how helpless I was at trying to complete things that had long felt "basic" to me.

But I don't think it's about the brain not being suited, I think it's that contrast of your experience level in imperative languages vs. the fact that when working in a pure functional style, you start out as a newbie again.

I think you'll gradually improve. I think the thing that finally made functional programming feel comfy for me was realizing how much I love composing code that basically feels like more generously spaced Bash "one-liners". The data starts out in one shape, so you run a command to dump it. Then you think of a step that gets it closer to what you want, you pipe it to that next command, and you take another look. And you keep going and at the end what you're looking at is typically pretty close to a series of transformations of data that you never mutate!

Part of what makes this feel comfy in the shell is that you build up that vocabulary of commands just by puttering around your file system every day. Over the years my library of familiar "functions" in a Unix-like environment has grown quite large. In a pure functional programming environment, you have to do the same thing but it takes a little more effort to learn the vocabulary. Your most frequently used "commands" will be functions like map, fold, and zip instead of grep, cat, or sort. But the core of it is really the same, and what I love about building pipelines applies equally to both: you can build it piece by piece, and for each puzzle you're on, you can forget about the previous steps and just think about the next transformation of the data that's in front of you. There is something refreshingly, relaxingly low-context about that.

Anyway I hope you give it a try and enjoy it. When we can learn to enjoy being bad at something, that's how we finally get good at it.

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> But I don't think it's about the brain not being suited, I think it's that contrast of your experience level in imperative languages vs. the fact that when working in a pure functional style, you start out as a newbie again.

When I was in university, the introductory class was about Java, and an advanced class in the next semester was about Haskell. There were many imperative/functional newbies in both classes, but the Haskell class still progressed much more slowly. Haskell is simply much harder to grasp, independently of experience.

You can also see this in the fact that even mathematicians use Python rather than Haskell for simulations. Despite the fact that there is no population that is better suited for Haskell than mathematicians.

Even cookbooks are always written in an imperative style, never in a functional one. Why is that? Human brains find imperative algorithms simply more intuitive, and this is not explained by not being used to functional ones.

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Cookbooks are imperative, sure. But not every book is a cookbook.

Religious texts, philosophy, ethics, and even self-improvement books often don't provide a procedure to follow. They teach things like how to handle conflict, how to act fairly, how to navigate difficult situations, or how to reason about competing values.

People then take those ideas and apply them across many different situations in their daily lives. In a sense, they build a toolbox of reusable mental functions rather than memorizing a single algorithm.

That's also why many people finish a self-improvement book feeling like they didn't get much out of it. They were expecting a recipe. Instead, they absorbed a collection of abstractions that only reveal their value when applied later in real situations.

The fact that cookbooks are imperative mainly shows that procedural tasks are naturally expressed procedurally. It's not obvious that this generalizes to human reasoning as a whole.

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Comments like this always confuse me as object oriented programs riddled with state are much harder to reason about to me.
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I'm working on a game engine right now (written in object oriented language, of course) and I keep itching to design a compiled functional language for games, because state spread in thousand of objects, eldritch class hierarchies, are complete hell.

Once you taste Elixir/Erlang, there is no going back to the madness.

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> I keep itching to design a compiled functional language for games

Jank wants to be this, right? IIRC its author and chief maintainer was a game dev before he dedicated himself to the language.

https://jank-lang.org/

Maybe porting your engine would be a great way to prove out Jank 1.0 when it arrives ;)

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Thanks for the pointer, never heard of this!
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Awesome! Maybe it's even a language you could enjoy contributing to. :D
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The confusing state riddling here happens in the background as your whole app basically is a state. The thing that really throws me off with Elixir is having to handle (possibly) hundreds of thousands of processes. Doing this correctly seemed impossible to learn for me.
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It's not like you're dealing with hundreds of thousands of ad-hoc processes. If you're writing a web server, for example, each of these processes might simply be a client connection and they all operate the same. The fact that there are 2 or 100,000 is only a problem for the BEAM scheduler.

Sounds like there is some foundational knowledge of Elixir that you miss and everything seems more confusing than it should be. To me writing a 'server' in Elixir is orders of magnitude easier than doing it in Python, Rust or C++.

As someone else suggested, bring your concerns to the Elixir Forum and surely someone will clarify them for you

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> Elixir is having to handle (possibly) hundreds of thousands of processes

OMG, why? Why would you ever have so many processes? All of them at the same time? Are you going to animate a 3D scene and run a process for each vertex, or something?

No, I mean, if you're WhatsApp - across all nodes - then somehow maybe yes? At scale. But in normal code, slicing workloads too thinly is counterproductive, and having even tens of thousands of processes is a sign that you're slicing it way too thin. Message passing between processes is cheap, but not free. Schedulers do a good job, but rarely have more than 16 cores to work with. And so on.

You can have that many processes if you want, to be sure. But if you're struggling with it, why would you want it?

Reading your comments in this thread, I have a feeling you just didn't spend enough time reflecting on how you want to use Elixir. In effect, you also failed to consider how exactly you should learn it. For example: Elixir is a perfectly capable procedural language. Start by writing CLI tools, without spawning any processes at all. Then try to parallelize their processing. If the tool accepts a list of files as arguments, use a `Task` to compute return values for each file. Tasks are processes, but with a particular contract that simplifies their usage. Later, you can experiment with error handling and supervision by putting the tasks under a supervisor. And so on. You go from the familiar to the less familiar, with a useful, working tool every step of the way.

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> No, I mean, if you're WhatsApp - across all nodes - then somehow maybe yes?

I mean, we had one process per client connection (which is 100% the way to go) and depending on the era, hundreds of thousands or millions of connections per chat node. I don't think we ever really summed the number of processes over a cluster.

Other than client processes, there weren't that many processes per node; like you say, it doesn't make sense to spread too thin.

There's a lot of client connections and so a lot of client processes, but it ends up being pretty simple to work with them. They all do the same thing... wait for a message, process the message, wait some more. Some of the messages are tricky to process (like the user just logged in again over here, so please transfer the state)

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I learned it for almost a full year by trying to build a live chat app. I went through Elixir in Action and the official guides and yet those questions were never really answered. I never said I want hundreds of thousands of processes, but thats definitely a thing you need to account for. Errors are often simply swallowed.
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> Errors are often simply swallowed.

That's a bit of a misrepresentation. Error handling on the BEAM has a few more layers than in other environments; specifically, the supervision tree can be used to "let things fail". That's not the layer where you should log or handle failures - that's a safety net that ensures your whole system won't go down if your error handling in a single process doesn't work.

For error handling, there are roughly these layers:

    - functions can return {:ok, value} or {:error, error}
    - functions can raise errors (similar to exceptions) that can be caught
    - processes can be monitored from the outside, you get notified when they die
    - processes can be linked and exits can be trapped, also notifying you on failure
    - supervisors can handle process deaths in a configurable manner
    - higher-level behaviours often expose their own error handling callbacks
So there's a bit more to error handling on the BEAM, and I get that becoming familiar with all of them and using them properly can be a challenge. The defaults skew towards high-availability, which is not always what you want in development - sometimes, failing fast and completely (up to stopping the app or the BEAM as a whole) is more convenient. You can have that; you just need to ask for it specifically in your code.
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> Errors are often simply swallowed.

That's a choice, but it's not idiomatic.

You're expected to write things like...

    ok = thing_that_might_not_work().
(Well, that's what it looks like in Erlang anyway). If there's an error, it doesn't match, so it crashes. You don't have to check for success, but it's easy to, and 'let it crash' is the mantra, so yeah. Then you watch for crashes, and fix them with hot loading, and pretty soon you have a reliable system.

Let it crash ends up not quite working, so you end up catching a lot of errors, but you should be logging them, not swallowing them...

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But would be even harder to wrap your head around if you tried to implement similar capabilities in Java.
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Come hang out on Elixir Forum! Lots of friendly folks there who are happy to answer (and re-answer) beginner questions. It's not quite what it was a few years ago thanks to LLMs, but it's still quite active.

EDIT: I see my cohort has already given you this suggestion :P

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Do https://htdp.org and follow all the exercises carefully (yes, it will feel like baby work at first) - you will retrain your brain for functional stuff. :-)
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What functional stuff is throwing you off? A whole bunch of it can be written procedurally when starting out.
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With Elixir specifically it was the learning experience I had with Phoenix. I didn't understand how a Phoenix app booted, didn't know where to edit my config. Syntax like:

``` socket "/ws/:user_id", MyApp.UserSocket, websocket: [path: "/project/:project_id"]

```

Elixir gives you too much freedom on how to write something on a syntax level which really annoyed me.

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I love Elixir and Phoenix, but Phoenix especially uses a lot of compile-time macros and it can be a steep learning curve when you need to pull apart the skeleton framework to figure out how things are actually wired.

I pretty frequently find myself needing to open up the source to understand what's actually going on, the docs aren't bad but it often feels like they assume a lot of existing familiarity with phoenix.

In this example, `socket` is a compile time macro and it's being called with

    path = "/ws/:user_id"
    module = MyApp.UserSocket
    args = [
      websocket: [
        path: "/project/:project_id"
      ]
    ]
and what is does is register that data with the `phoenix_sockets` attribute inside the module you called `socket` from. At compile time that gets turned into a lookup inside your module, and presumable then the UserSocket module is invoked when a websocket request hits the specified path.

Would you find it more clear if socket was called like this?

    socket("/ws/:user_id", MyApp.UserSocket, [websocket: [path: "/project/:project_id"]])

Or, alternatively, would it help if the endpoint was more specifically defined like

    defmodule MyApp.Endpoint do
      use Phoenix.Endpoint, 
        otp_app: :my_app,
        web_sockets: [
          socket("/ws/:user_id", MyApp.UserSocket, [websocket: [path: "/project/:project_id"]])
        ]
    end
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I think the lack of parentheses is whats throwing me off regularly with Elixir.
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I find the optional parentheses, and the way that keyword lists are defined to be the two biggest stumbling blocks when I come back to Elixir after a while way.

Coming from other languages, I find that

    example("with", 3, extra: "arguments", as: "a", keyword: "list")
being equivalent to

    example("with", 3, [extra: "arguments", as: "a", keyword: "list"])
and

    example "with", 3, extra: "arguments", as: "a", keyword: "list"
always takes some extra mental effort to get through, especially when there's no parenthesis. But I appreciate not having to write all the extra brackets and parens when I get going, so I think it's a fair tradeoff.
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Elixir has enough syntax sugar to cause diabetes.

Personally, I like the flexibility, but yes there are a lot of rules to keep in mind.

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one more ;)

    example("with", 3, [{:extra, "arguments"}, {:as, "a"}, {:keyword, "list"}])

    iex> [{:extra, "arguments"}, {:as, "a"}, {:keyword, "list"}] = [extra: "arguments", as: "a", keyword: "list"]
    [extra: "arguments", as: "a", keyword: "list"]
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> Elixir gives you too much freedom on how to write something on a syntax level

This is true perhaps compared to python or go, but not compared to Java, JS/TS, or some others.

> socket "/ws/:user_id", MyApp.UserSocket, websocket: [path: "/project/:project_id"]

Socket is a behavior, which is like a trait or interface. MyAppWeb.UserSocket implements the behavior. It's basically a convenience over having to write a bunch of repetitive WS or long poll handling every time you want a socket like thing. Its pretty well documented https://phoenix.hexdocs.pm/Phoenix.Socket.html.

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I find beginners respond well to this resource: https://joyofelixir.com/toc.html
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community is super nice I am sure you will get help.
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