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For me, it has a positive connotation! In my experience, Chinese Model means cheaper, but still quite effective model you can use for millions of tokens without burning your entire wallet in seconds. That's why I get more excited over a Chinese model release over American models.
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I don't know, I tried using one of the Chinese models and it was VERY quick to scan my entire home dir, so maybe your threat surface is a little different than mine
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Models can't scan anything.

They return instructions for you to do something, and you or a script you permit chooses to execute what the model tells you and return the result to the model.

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Japanese cars is actually a positive qualifier. I'd say anything Japanese motor-powered.
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Maybe he's just from an alternative universe. Chinese model isn't negative either after all.
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I don't think "Chinese" is pejorative in this context any more than "American" is. They are one of the two ecosystems. What's wrong with saying "Japanese cars" today?
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> What's wrong with saying "Japanese cars" today?

Only that it’s a fairly meaningless grouping. When japan first entered the car market in north america there might have been some commonality, but now what characteristics do they share that some american cars don’t have? They’re not even imported a lot of the time.

Given that, it does start to feel tinged with racism if someone insists on grouping things together that don’t really belong together.

As for Chinese LLMs, the term doesn’t “feel” pejorative to me - but i also don’t see a totally clear set of attributes they share. Not all are open-weight. Some are small and can be run on consumer hardware, some are huge. They even have a variety of answers to what happened june 3rd 1989

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> now what characteristics do they share that some american cars don’t have?

Typically the answer is "reliability", which is a positive trait, which makes the original callout about negative connotations very odd to me.

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Chinese AI models also share a positive trait: they offer more bang for the buck.
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> but now what characteristics do they share that some american cars don’t have?

Better overall design?

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Sadly there is a pejorative context. The constant us, the free world vs China, the evil Soviets rhetoric from every major news establishment and executive creates that negative view
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On the other hand the Trump administration has successfully managed to make Chinese seem better than American, so there might not be that much of a pejorative context any more..
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You're right, but the bias in the US certainly persists. "China = bad" is an assumption that many people still make without any self-reflection about the ways in which the US is now at least as bad.
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No thanks.

The term seems to have the connotation of "competitive at 1/10 the price of Claude", so I don't see the problem.

It's not Harbor Freight Chinese (and heck even they have decent stuff sometimes now too).

You don't think people still talk about Japanese cars as a distinction in quality from US or European ones?

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They are all funded and owned by the same entity, the CCP, so it probably would be better to call them CCP models.

Edit: Downvoting something doesn't make it false.

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For those that don't like calling them CCP models, may I remind you, the CCP won't let Chinese AI researchers out of the country any more without securing approval first[1].

[1] https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/artificial-intell...

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I tend to agree with the comment in my reply thread about whether we really need to add biased modifiers to the essence of a good product. I think every national system in this world is flawed. And in this context, 'China or Chinese' is often used in a negative sense, like 'Made in China'. But KIMI is a good model, and I think the comment that pointed this out to me correctly identified my unconscious bias.

And even if the Chinese Communist Party provided funding, the result is still transparently released. So even if it is some kind of propaganda, I don't see what the problem is.

Is the monopolistic greed of American companies 'good', and China's greed 'bad'? I do have that question.

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The question is not whether it is a good model, it is whether the model can be trusted to not act intentionally maliciously against certain topics or certain users.

We live in a time of a great geopolitical rivalry and high tensions with an emergent technology with tons of national security implications. To pretend otherwise is silly, and to fail to ask the question, dangerous.

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> The question is not whether it is a good model, it is whether the model can be trusted to not act intentionally maliciously against certain topics or certain users.

We absolutely know that we can't trust the American model not to do that - it's "by the oligarchs, for the oligarchs" - so it's not clear what the claim really is.

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Whether or not it's propaganda is different from the fact that it is owned by the CCP.
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Doesn't matter, because they're open-weight, so I can just download them to my PC and... hey, look, now they're owned by me! Unlike the "good" Western counterparts which are all fully proprietary. (Except Mistral, but they're nowhere near SOTA.)
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What is hidden in the weights matters.
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Ah yes, those pesky Chinese backdoors that no single instance was ever found, even though Chinese open-weight model are a thing for many years now. Many people burn through millions of tokens on these models every day - surely someone would have triggered one of those backdoors, right?

Or that pesky CCP censorship and propaganda baked into the model, which any random guy can remove from whichever model they want as a single weekend side project with an off-the-shelf tool[1]. (Try it. It's fun. I've done it myself.)

[1]: https://github.com/p-e-w/heretic

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I agree it is an empirical question. I do not know if that research has been done in the open sphere. But please, do not pretend that there isn't a real geopolitical rivalry going on that makes such questions a legitimate, non-fruity concern.
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This is a fair point, alongside the one about the hidden content in the weights.

Exactly why my prime suspect would be the one country with focus on proprietary models, and the one country prone to bombing others, including with nuclear weapons.

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Sure, but the difference is that one side (Anthropic, OpenAI, Google and co.) hoards everything, keeping it proprietary behind API paywalls and constantly spewing AI doomer rhetoric while limiting what you can do "for your own safety" (especially Anthropic; Dario has been consistently doing this since GPT-2 days, every time claiming that things are "too dangerous" for the common folk to handle). While the other side (big, bad China) releases all SOTA open-weight models with which you can do whatever you want with, along with a ton of open research.

So yes, there is geopolitical rivalry, but one side is deliberately antagonistic (not releasing anything in the open, putting arbitrary restrictions, spewing toxic rhetoric, applying sanctions, etc.) while the other side is letting everyone (including their rivals) to use what they've produced with little-no-to restrictions.

I'm under no illusion that if the situation was reversed China would most likely do the same, but as things stand you can probably guess which side I'm rooting for here (at least until the roles reverse).

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Yes, each are following their own business strategy, frontier labs have no incentives for releasing open weights, while second and third-tier labs, it is one of their few plays to gain market/mind share. But business is only part of it, as national security is another. It may be that the CCP has been relatively hands off exactly because of my concern, judging that market share and reputation is more important (for now).
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Do you believe there's some meaningful benefit to the American VC funding model in this case? It's not clear to me what you're trying to say or why you think it's an important distinction.
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I've heard this claim before but I've never seen any evidence.
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Have you looked, or you’re just waiting for someone to hand it to you?
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The burden of evidence is on the accuser.
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Its akin to the accusation that the UK is a parliamentary system...
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Assuming you are just naive like so many others about China...

China is a communist country with elements of capitalistic markets baked in. But the capitalistic elements are mostly a facade. Underneath, the state retains full ownership and control of all business. The CCP runs all aspects of the government (including the courts/judges), and is the single entity that decides what directions the country (and it's businesses) will move in.

The CCP, who defacto owns everything and has ultimate final say on everything, has one leader that has the ultimate final say on _everything_, Xi Jinping.

So while the waters of CCP models feel warm and free, understand it's not organically like that.

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> China is a communist country with elements of capitalistic markets baked in.

While I get the point you're making (it should be pretty obvious to anyone who's held a newspaper), I think it's important regardless to point out that Chinese companies AFAIK aren't worker-owned or -controlled, so you can't exactly call it communism, either. And they obviously do not have a "free market capitalism", as you just discussed.

It's simply a highly authoritarian state then, I guess?

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The companies are all worker owned, because the state exists for the people, and the state owns everything. At least on paper that's how it is sold. After all it is the Peoples Republic of China.
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I mean, if that's the bar then the state owns everything in America as well. After all, you don't really own your land if the state can regulate what you do on it, what it can be used for, what you can build on it, and can take it away if they really need it. The state owns the land, the money supply, and regularly restricts and instructs businesses to take or desist from actions.

As such, the state owns everything in both countries, the only differences are to what extent they control things.

I wouldn't even call the USA a capitalist system anymore, the economy is so heavily regulated and interfered with. It's a "managed economy", like pretty much every other nation's economy in the present day.

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In the US you can take the state to court and win...
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Crazy mental gymnastics if you think the American oligarchs don’t have the final say on everything in America. They’re just smart enough to do it behind the scenes, well they used to be. They barely bother anymore.
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Generally I consider conspiracy to be the "crazy mental gymnastics"
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yes, yes, the spectre of communism, BYD is the CCP, Alibaba is the CCP, stealing your children and eating them for Mao, bla bla bla.

I have a feeling you'd be slightly salty at people saying "Google and Tesla are making CIA models"

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I mean...

Since its development, IQT has invested in over 750 startups spanning diverse technological sectors, including:

  - Artificial Intelligence
  - Space Technologies
  - Microelectronics and Quantum Computing
  - Life Sciences
  - Cybersecurity
  - Hardware
  - Energy
This broad portfolio has enabled IQT to address a wide array of national security challenges while supporting the growth of innovative startups…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-Q-Tel

https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2012/07/16/15...

https://www.cgai.ca/th_bn_iqt

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I know, but it's far too fun to bait the parent into revealing how ignorant they are.
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Going by their response you appear to have been correct lol
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I'm not salty, they are just confused about the difference between free enterprise capitalism and communism, which is understandable.
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Google and Tesla making products to sell to the government is different than the government funding the government to make products for the government.

In China it's all one entity with these mock facades of privatization. Trump cannot instruct Google to put picture of dogs on their homepage. If Xi wakes up and wants dogs on Alibaba's homepage, give it 30 minutes.

It's wholly ignorant or dishonest to make the comparison.

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> Trump cannot instruct Google to

Tim Apple and the other tech CEO constantly groveling at Trump’s feet indicates that he might be able to do that.

Just like threatening TV networks about having their licenses revoked of blocking mergers unless they fire the people making fun of him on TV (of course with slightly mixed success)

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> Trump cannot instruct Google to put picture of dogs on their homepage.

Sundar Pichai would personally be barking on a livestream on the homepage.

Trump is quite literally the one president showing that the US has zero rules or anything to hold power back from the white house, really not the example you want.

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Seems like everyday Trump has another order struck down by the courts.

Sundar can do whatever he wants, but he has no legal obligation to do any of it.

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> Trump cannot instruct Google to put picture of dogs on their homepage.

I'm sorry, but that was a horrible example. Corporations have no obligation to donate money to the ballroom yet Google has donated millions.

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>Corporations have no obligation to donate money to the ballroom yet Google has donated millions.

Imagine living in a country where they have the obligation.

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Courts and legal obligations are to a certain extent irrelevant at this point. There are plenty of illegal ways that Trump can fuck over Google and face no consequences.

e.g. he had Colbert fired (and who knows what else) by threatening to block the Paramount/Skydance merger

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You are right. I agree.It may seem like a kind of bias, but I hadn't thought of that part. Thank you for pointing out my bias.
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"You're absolutely right"?
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"You hit the nail on the head" LOL
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