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I think my POV on this is a bit different than what others are expressing… I don’t mind answering the occasional email while on vacation, but I view it as a fair trade - as long as the company doesn’t mind me handling the occasional personal obligation during work hours I don’t mind handling the occasional work obligation during personal hours. If the company wants to be strict about clock in/out hours or taking PTO for every 30 minute errand or the work trends in a way that routinely exceeds 40 hours per week total then I’ll stop doing work “off the clock”, but so long as they’re willing to be reasonable I’m willing to be reasonable.
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The idea with vacation is that you don't think about work. When I start vacation I disable all the channels that people usually use so that no one asks me even by accident. There needs to be a time when you are completely undisturbed and disconnected. If you are disturbed by work you will think about work while you answer and maybe even after that. That's not good.

I also think you should normalize for yourself and your workplace that there are times when you are not there. If only you can answer a question then there needs to be better documentation. See it as a trail run for when you get hit by a bus. If they will struggle without you then that is a problem that needs to be fixed. If you are always reachable these problems will never surface.

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One of the reasons I left North America for Europe is that such things are normalised. The cultural difference is staggering.

In Germany, if you are on vacation, you are simply not available. You are dead to the world until you return. Emails do not get read, and devices get left at the office.

Another neat thing is that if you get sick on vacation, you get your vacation days back, because vacation days are for resting and recovering.

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> if you are on vacation, you are simply not available. You are dead to the world until you return. Emails do not get read, and devices get left at the office.

It's funny because that's kind of the definition of a vacation in my book. I find it weird that some places in the world handle it differently.

Note that it's also much better for the company in the long run: It's a test of resilience and redundany, the famous bus factor. It simulates what happens if someone is not available, and forces the organization around to have a backup plan. Having those is important for cases where employees leave the company or team (switching jobs/teams, accidents, sickness, parental leave, death, burnout, layoffs etc.). It's mind-boggling how many leads at various levels just don't understand that.

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I remember vaguely from interning at a bank that there you were actually obliged to be totally isolated from the company for a continuous period of time by policy.

The thinking was that if you were cooking the books of doing some dodgy dealing on the side it would come to light without you there to actively 'manage' it.

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This is how it should be though - nobody should be irreplaceable. Look up bus factor etc.
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Not to forget that you get a minimum of four weeks of vacation per year with 30 days being offered most of the time.

This year I used my vacation time well and I already had 3 weeks off while I still have almost 4 weeks left.

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Thanks for the reminder that this shouldn't be taken for granted. I am a German and sometimes this privilege feels so normal that it's unthinkable that it could be different elsewhere in the world.
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I help immigrants integrate for a living. Germany can be a frustrating country, but this is one of its best redeeming qualities.

I'd also add that the culture allows and encourages sick days. The average is 15 sick days per year IIRC.

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Totally off-topic, but I read your profile to learn about this: https://allaboutberlin.com - you do awesome work, thank you!

Now I wonder if I could help the immigrants in my area (I'm in Hesse/Hessen), thanks for the inspiration too.

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The average number of sick days used is 15 or the number of days offered?

In New Zealand we get a minimum of 10 sick working days per year but some companies offer more and allow unused sick leave to accumulate.

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You don't have an offered number of sick days in Germany. If you're sick, your sick. At some points (after 6 weeks) the employer stops paying for it, and the payment switches to the health insurance and drops down to 70% of your usual gross salary (with some more specifics).
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Sick days are not “offered” by employers. Sick days are prescribed by the doctors and there is no upper limit. After all, your sickness will not disappear just because it has been N days. That's at last how it is in Poland.
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Sweden has 14 sick days no questions asked before you need a doctors note. The German way of having to call your doctor for a flu note is a little odd to me. You do loose the first day's pay (the meme is that too many people were off sick when there was a world cup finals or something), and then 80% pay.
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> You do loose the first day's pay

Many countries have this system and the usual effect is that the duration people are sick for is magically never less than 2 days. It's dumb policy.

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This is not accurate. In Germany, you usually only have to get a doctor's note at 2 or 3 days, if youre only sick for a day or two you don't need one.

And there's an unlimited number of sick days. As long as you have a doctor's note, you still get paid, up to some ridiculous limit at which you might have to get government support instead.

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It's up to the employer, they can ask for a doctor's note from day 1. Many employers have more lenient rules, though.
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I wrote a primer about sick days here: https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/sick-leave

15 is the average. I use it to reassure people that it's okay to take sick days, and not one of those rights that no one dares to use.

Usually, employers ask for a doctors' note after 3 consecutive sick days, but the reason for the sickness remains hidden from the employer. The note just gives a time range, nothing more.

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Even the concept that you need permission from your employer to take a sick day is crazy to me. After all, if you're sick, you're sick, not like a hard deadline of 15 days (or whatever) is going to make the sickness go away?
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It can honestly be annoying, if you're not privvy to it.

I remember years ago needing urgent support for some bespoke European hardware we were developing software for. When we called support, we were greeted with a phone message stating the company was closed for the entire month due to vacation. This was not a one-man operation; the whole office closed for a summer holiday. We thought it was a joke.

Needless to say we started to look for a new vendor shortly thereafter...

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I'm surprised, typically we don't all take vacation at the same time, but stagger it.
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It really depends on the areas. On white collar jobs yes. It is more frequent in blue collars workers because it is easier to close completely or partially (several lines) in a factory than having to manage different vacations schedules. Constructions companies also do stop because you usually need most workers available + hot weather makes it harder anyway. Small/familiar companies also do it frequently because it doesn't make sense to work if you have dependencies on a number or unavailable persons.
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I've seen construction companies use all their vacatiom in December in America (since it sucks to work in in the cold)
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It's not entirely uncommon, even companies like Volkswagen have 3 weeks of summer vacation. Strictly speaking, some people still work there for maintenance, etc. that can't be done while making cars, but the majority is on vacation.

I know a handful of companies with a week of mandatory Christmas vacation as well (but there's typically not too many working days between Christmas and New Years' either way).

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In England, I had summer jobs in factories when I was a teenager, since they needed extra hands to help with cleaning / maintenance during the annual shutdown.

I don't know if this work would have been offered to staff who turned it down, or if they preferred to have their staff on holiday at the same time.

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My advice is don’t ever buy anything that might need support from New Zealand between 24 Dec and 5 Jan. The entire country is just about closed (other than non-niche consumer stores).

Many companies force staff to take vacation days during this time, and there are four (yes four!) public holidays during this period.

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I mean, that's not usual at all in Europe either.
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This seems like a lot of extra work. If at all possible, just keep your work stuff on your work laptop/computer. And then keep that at home/at work. No need to sign in and out of 20 different accounts.
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> This seems like a lot of extra work

Music to the ears of a workaholic :)

Seriously, that'd be nice if everyone would do this (and I do it now, very strictly) but I also know how easy for one to start blurring the lines between work and personal lives.

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My company have accidentally forced this on me, and it is great.

I used to have a desktop that I could VPN+RDC into from my personal laptop or desktop to work away from the office¹. I've now got a laptop, that refuses to let me authenticate remotely and they have no interest in fixing that as there are other priorities, so I simply can't work if I don't have that laptop with me and I'm not carting it around when I'm already carting my own around (and if I'm not carrying my own, it is because it isn't a suitable situation to be bringing any laptop).

Not a workaholic, I don't think, but a 24/7 stress monkey when I think that I could be helping. Simply not being able to work away from the office actually helps with that: if there is literally nothing I can do, especially given it is work that has made that impossible, I don't stress the same way.

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[1] other than the VPN connector and the MFA doo-hicky on an old² phone, nothing work related, even Teams, even email, ever touches my personal devices

[2] a small old thing, factory reset with a dummy google account and just the MFA apps installed

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> Not a workaholic, I don't think, but a 24/7 stress monkey when I think that I could be helping

I er... think you might be a workaholic.

But I'm glad for you that your current setup is helping :)

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I now want to seek an on site role and request a desktop computer.
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> Leave your work devices behind!

Specifically, if your job offers (a) to pay for your personal phone line, or (b) a work mobile phone, choose (b).

We have the choice at $WORK, and many teammates chose (a) as it allows them to save some money each month on their phone bill, but now you're basically constantly tethered.

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Easy, that has always been my whole European life, want to reach me on vacations, pay for it.
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As a manager, I will quite literally ding people for working when they are supposed to be off.

Work during work time, don't work during not-work time. Good practices mean that everyone is important, but nobody is irreplaceable, the team and the work will move along a little slower, but that's fine.

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Quote from my partner's manager before a vacation:

"If I see you log on, I'll disable your account."

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I had a colleague at my previous company where we had to log her out of everything and ask IT to keep her logged out until their vacation was done every single time. Her water broke during her pregnancy leave and she still replied to someone asking her a question in Slack near real-time, after which we made her uninstall Slack from her phone altogether lol

Some people are just workaholics and need interventions to actually take a proper holiday.

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Humm he means figure out everything you’re signed in to before going on vacation and log off?

Personally I’m sure I’d forget to sign out of something.

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No, they don't mean "you should log off everywhere" literally; rather, "don't open Teams/Slack/${our_corporate_chat_software}".
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Probably more Teams autostart and suddenly you appear in the online list when you are officially on vacation.
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extremely relevant recent Kai Lentit skit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E7kBOH9owI

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Being the only dev in a startup since 2 years without a single day off where I wasn't messaged by my employer I want this. At least I'll have a 3 week out of country trip where I do not bring my laptop later this year...
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You should really consider another place to work at, unless you own a massive, measurable chunk of the company in a legally binding way.

The only people who should suffer this much are the true busines owners.

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I don't, but I enjoy a lot of perks that I would not get anywhere else. Thats why I stay. Basically work when I want, where I want. 100% remote if I choose to do so. Very flexible days off (maybe that's also why I am contacted a lot during those days). Almost no meetings, and relatively good pay.
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That's exploitation, no? You're just scammed into it, because you let it slide.
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Honestly, that is just bad management. It can make sense if it's your company, but even then, the risk profile is just off the charts. What happens if your only developer leaves or gets sick?

Real engineers think about handling things when stuff goes wrong, not "everything will be on the happy path forever".

Yes, there are constraints, but to me this sounds like an unacceptable level of exposure.

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You're a good person.

My manager doesn't stop overworking. When told on peer performance review that we have people who are consistently overwork because they are swamped, he played it down.

But hey, at least he doesn't encourage overworking either.

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Kai Lentit just dropped a video on precisely this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E7kBOH9owI

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> Log out of all accounts, remove 2FA keys after backing them up on paper

Seems like a lot of extra work, just to go on vacation :)

I would suggest another approach. Automate your work, that you can work from your phone. I go on multi day hiking trips, or a week long family beach holidays, without taking PTO...

Edit: I do not get negative reactions. Big part of my work is to monitor system, and answer questions. I spend less time on my phone than most social app users! I still do heavy coding in office a few times a month. And I am self employed for nit pickers.

Work does not have to be sufering, you can enjoy it!

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>> Log out of all accounts, remove 2FA keys after backing them up on paper [...]

>> Signed: Former workaholic.

> Seems like a lot of extra work, just to go on vacation :)

That's the point, this person and plenty others, are NOT able to "just" go and disconnect. If you can do that, wonderful for you, but please don't assume others are like you precisely when they are humble enough to clarify that they do have a problem and try to help others to overcome it.

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Just not bringing the devices should be enough.
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I regularly advocate for offline moments so I definitely agree on the "how" ... but that's still not my point though.

What I was trying to highlight was that HOW depends on whom you are talking to. Here they just mentioned a deep behavior problem. Saying "just" or "simply" or "should" or "ought to" or anything implying it's really not that hard is probably not going to be encouraging to them.

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yeah but I mean it is the same about logging out accounts or removing 2FA which is what I was really replying to.

If that person doesn't have the mental strength to do any action on their own, I totally agree that they probably need therapy first.

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Regarding your edit, you might be ok with going on a multi-day hiking trip or family holiday while still doing some amount of work from your phone, but many of us think that's a bad idea.

Truly disconnecting from our work is necessary for our mental health. When I'm on vacation, I want to be on vacation, which means not working.

Again, maybe you don't want to actually fully be on vacation from work. I guess that's fine; you do you. But I don't think that's healthy for most people, and regardless of health, many people do just want to completely disconnect from work for some number of days.

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You're basically saying to get a different job.

That's going to work in some situations, but it's not broadly applicable for many reasons. In particular it's way more work than the act of backing up 2FA and logging out of everything. So yeah, it makes a lot of sense for people to think that's not good advice.

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This is the ideal, but in practice you need to own the business to live this way..
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Also candy is enjoyable but 24/7 sucking on it is not.
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Living your life = sucking on candy?
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Imagine some people sleep at work... I get paid for being available, not LARPing at desk!

Much better than 2 hour daily unpaid commute at old job.

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