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Huh. I really don't see the point of this, vs something like GrapheneOS.

Edit: I'm well aware of the differences between typical Linux and Android (especially the security architecture!), and I'm willing to make some sacrifices in the name of FOSS... but only if it's actually FOSS.

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If what you want is android and you have privacy concerns, GrapheneOS is probably the best you can get.

Then again, SailfishOS is a linux with much of the usual linux stuff like userland with bash, coreutils, glibc, systemd, wayland, pulseaudio etc.

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And way less security, sandboxing is far more limited and the default profile looks pretty much YOLO:

https://github.com/sailfishos/sailjail-permissions/blob/mast...

Given how sensitive information most people have on their phones (banking, chats, and whatnot), it's a disaster in the making.

The typical answer is "but I'll only use open source apps that I trust". Sandboxing doesn't only protect you against rogue apps, it primarily protects you against 0-days in apps that you do trust.

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It's very simple, this is about the threat model.

If you are worried about big players profiling you (hard to avoid, high likelihood of happening, low likelihood of damage), then you want Sailfish.

If you are worried about apps profiling you (easy to avoid, high likelihood of happening, moderate likelihood of damage), you want Android or iOS.

Graphene and Sailfish sit on different points on that spectrum, just like OpenBSD and Linux do.

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If it has the "security" architecture of Linux (it's really more of a multi-tenant architecture) then that's a complete deal breaker. Wouldn't want it if it was 1000x faster/betterer than Android.

Our desktop OSes are just incompatible with running untrusted software, and you're gonna want to do that.

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/etc configuration instead of the insanely bad system properties crap, glibc instead of bionic (which has even worse POSIX compliance than Windows), ld instead of linker, FHS, not having a batshit insane No-Sockets rule, not needing to port software that already compiles and runs on GNU/Linux, X11/Wayland/Arcan, system services aren't entangled with Java, normal IPC mechanisms instead whatever the fuck binder is. The list goes on.

Android (and by extension GrapheneOS) uses Linux as a kernel, but it lives in its own world and is completely unrecognizable. I'd say it's even more alien than macOS. For most users, the differences don't matter. If you're a programmer or a sysadmin with reasonable expectations, you feel like a fish out of water very fast. And I cannot honestly the changes are for the better.

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> /etc configuration instead of the insanely bad system properties crap, glibc instead of bionic [...]

The practical downside, however, is that this phone does not natively run Android apps, while GrapheneOS runs all Android apps bar those that require Play Integrity. Desktop GNU/Linux programs are either unusable or a terrible experience on a mobile device with a small screen and no mouse.

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> Desktop GNU/Linux programs are either unusable or a terrible experience on a mobile device with a small screen and no mouse.

Is this an assumption or coming from your experience? Because I'm typing this on a GNU/Linux phone in a desktop browser and use a bunch of desktop applications daily and haven't noticed.

Of course if you run GIMP or something like that it won't fit unless you plug an external screen and a mouse in, but all the applications I use daily are perfectly usable. There's a lot of Kirigami and libadwaita programs these days that just work well on a phone, and if I need to launch my bank's application there's always Waydroid.

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Well, can you take a picture that looks better than what I made 20 years ago on a flip phone?

I have a pinephone and try it out year after year.. Well, let's just say that there is so many areas of improvement to make "GNU/linux" run on a mobile device (that sorta includes laptops as well, even though I have done so for years) that we might as well start over from statch.

For example one can't just let everything run whenever it wants, wasting battery life. Android's "more complicated" system and binder was criticized in this thread, but that's exactly what ties together the whole thing to be able to run on a device that fits in your hand, with centrally managed "let's pause this app now" etc

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Could you please elaborate, which software is usable on mobile Linux except for Firefox? I've seen multiple people using mobile Linux, and they were using Firefox and webapps for everything, no exceptions.
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Checking Flathub should give you some idea: https://flathub.org/en/apps/collection/mobile/1

There are more, not every application that works fine has metadata filled up (and not everything is on Flathub either).

I do use some webapps, but with Epiphany rather than Firefox.

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I can use most native GNU/Linux apps on my Librem 5 like gnome-calculator, gnome-calender, gnome-weather etc. I can run Android apps via Waydroid. F-Droid works fine, too. Its default app store (https://software.pureos.net/categories) provides things like music players, OTP app, and games. Flatpak works, too.

See also: https://linuxphoneapps.org/

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That's true, but is contingent on you running those Android apps for it to be meaningful. I have a very small number of interactive things I do with my phone. For me what matters is that writing software isn't a pain in the ass, my usual expectations on storage (eg remote filesystems) works and works well, maintaining my system works, my non-interactive system scripts work, etc. Almost all of this is broken on Android, and it doesn't really make up for it by breaking it to make it better. I find much of the design choices of the operating system to be completely tasteless.

If you say, rely on google maps, banking apps, apps for your IoT appliances, etc. it's certainly relevant. I don't have any of that though.

For me the most and truest pressing issue is that cell modems are very, very tightly coupled with Android. It's still true for the Jolla Phone that it simply is a worse phone because the modem drivers are buggy. This is a complicated issue that isn't getting better, and is mostly to do with legislation legally mandating the tivoization of cell modems, a weird line in the sand on what responsibilities fall to the hardware or to what software, as well as the modem manufacturers themselves not really caring.

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For me the most and truest pressing issue is that cell modems are very, very tightly coupled with Android. It's still true for the Jolla Phone that it simply is a worse phone because the modem drivers are buggy.

My impression (also for Ubuntu Touch, etc.) is that all these systems use the upstream vendors' Linux kernels trees and firmware blobs for Android.

Unfortunately, since we are not talking about Samsung or Google, but just some random Chinese ODMs, it's usually years old Linux versions and ancient firmware blobs full of known holes (e.g. the C2 is running a Linux tree from October 2022). It's only thanks to the tireless work of postmarketOS etc. that some devices boot on modern kernels.

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Also Play Integrity (if you run sandboxed Google Play Services), but it only passes at the basic level, which is enough for most apps that use Play Integrity.
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SailfishOS (from Jolla) runs Android applications via Alien Dalvik.
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I think he was asking about advantages, not "how is it similar to a Unix system from the 80s?"
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The irony you fail to realize, the differences listed in fact would be typical of a random Unix system in the 80s, where it's just a mountain of bad and random opinions stapled on top of a Unix system. Some random and half-baked libc? You got it! Some bizarre and overly convoluted greenfield filesystem structure? It's right there! Completely different and frustrating custom linker behavior? Yep!

Everything I listed was an advantage. Now see, I don't think Unix is the be-all end-all of operating systems design. I don't particularly care for Linux, the BSDs, macOS, etc. But Android is a definite regression in the strongest terms. Give me a PIMOS or Genera or Squeak phone that works well. I'll be happier than I would with a Linux phone.

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Which system has better security from an end-user perspective?

Only iOS comes anywhere close.

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My xperia 10 iii was 280€(+50€ OS) vs 500€++ for a pixel.

But I hate phones. All I want is navigation, sms/call, signal, steam and firefox.

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Ehm, a Pixel 9a is currently 349 Euro here (10a 399 Euro). Given that the OS is free, that's only a 19 Euro difference. For a much better camera, much better SoC, much better pretty much everything.

Of course, if your goal is to run SailfishOS, there is currently not much of another option.

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You might be interested in the callback:

https://commodore.net/callback/

It's pretty cool looking! Very optimistic about it.

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It doesn't have any web browsers. Who you are replying to wants Firefox.
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The Pixel 10a is on sale for $399 on Amazon right now, and it's a far better device, and it can run GrapheneOS.
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I read somewhere that the owners have ties to russia, but the most important thing is that they’re marketing very aggressively through posts that slander GraphenOS.
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> they’re marketing very aggressively through posts that slander GraphenOS

I would really appreciate it if you could give some references - any at all - to back this claim.

All I have seen is GrapheneOS folks (or probably just a certain individual affiliated with the GrapheneOS org) accusing them of doing this.

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IIRC the company tried to become a major mobile operating system in the BRICS countries, which led to Rostelecom, the Russian state telecom operator, purchasing a majority state in the company in the mid-2010s. After Russia invaded Ukraine, the company's management started a new company and moved all their employees and IP over to it to escape the Russian ownership.
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Oh, thanks for sharing. everything russia related is a hard pass until they repent
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Russian Aurora OS was an official Sailfish OS offspring, focused on MDM devices, but Sailfish cut ties with Aurora in 2022, after the Russia-Ukraine war has emerged. It's now developed independently of Sailfish, although they share the same code since the codebase was unified before the split.
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Jesus christ, what is this FUD?

I know the people behind SailfishOS, they’re not like, friends or anything: just ex-Nokia developers who got fucked by Microsoft (like I did, btw, which is how I know of them).

I feel like the big tech smartphone duopoly would have a reason to spread such rubbish, but its so patently obvious that I doubt they are so stupid.

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It’s a sensitive topic for the US because it is an an EU-backed and funded project to move away from US tech, which undermines US interests globally. which is why you might see some unusually intense anger/vitriol hurled their way and Goebbels-level fabrications
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The word to describe this is /законтачений/ . Some people are to be avoided even if they maintain the outward appearance of normalcy and not even realize themselves what the problem even is. Trust bit permanently burned, nothing to see here.
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From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolla

"It acquired new investors in 2016, among them the Russian company Votron. In March 2018 they were joined by Rostelecom (which is state owned) as investor, which took over Votron and OMP."

Note that was after 2014 russian invasion into Ukraine.

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You mean that GrapheneOS has ties to Russia? https://ised-isde.canada.ca/cc/lgcy/fdrlCrpDtls.html?p=0&cor...

(I actually couldn't find information on their nationality, they might be e.g. Ukrainian or second-generation Russian immigrants; Micay is somewhat Russian-sounding too, btw, although I think he's known to have been born in Canada).

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No, Jolla. They worked with the Russian government. But they cut ties even before the 2022 invasion:

https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/plea-for-official-statement-f...

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Cutting ties is a matter of protecting ones investment, while working with certain parties is a moral choice.
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GrapheneOS also does, as does iOS (Jobs visited the USSR on July 4th of all days) and Android (Sergey Brin is of Russian descent). The FSB is likely reading over your shoulder as we speak. Also, have you checked your closets lately?
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You are trying to be funny, while russian drones fly above my mom's house, so it isn't as good of an answer to give as you may image
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I get frustrated when people draw imaginary Russian connections into projects/products that I like. It often happens with anything “hackerish” or non-mainstream (particularly privacy adjacent things) and has become quite annoying.
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> It's still more open than AOSP

I don't think this is true at all? AOSP is completely open source modulo driver blobs (which Sailfish has too) and Google services.

One can make a fully functional system, modulo drivers, out of only open-source components using AOSP. It's not possible to do this using Sailfish; the compositor, UI libraries (Silica), and most of the "core" apps are still closed source.

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The compositor is open (Lipstick) : https://github.com/sailfishos/lipstick

And OSS projet based on the SFOS core exist : https://nemomobile.net/, https://github.com/nemomobile-ux

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Ahh, thanks for the correction, it's the window manager that's closed (lipstick-jolla-home). Regardless, I will stand by my statement that a fully open-source build of AOSP is significantly more complete and useful than a fully open-source build of Jolla.

If we're going to start counting forks, we get to count LineageOS and GrapheneOS for Android, and then the goalposts really move.

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A pure AOSP distribution is now lacking a lot of basic apps. Distributions like LineageOS or GrapheneOS fill the gap with their own, but pure AOSP is totally unusable.
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I kinda wish NemoMobile would be default UI… current SailfishUI with force gestures is (for me) highly annoying…
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If I remember correctly a lot of AOSP core apps have been discontinued though.
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I think people got too used to bundling by Apple and Google. For most of the core apps there are good and open source alternatives available.

The main point is that AOSP as a system (modulo firmware) is open source and SailfishOS is not. Also, even though Sailfish has an Android compatibility layer (though only for official devices), compatibility is most likely always going to be worse than 'real' Android.

That said, I hope that Jolla Phone becomes a success, more competition is good. Hopefully being funded better will move them to fully open source the base system.

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Yes and most people don't realize that the current "AOSP" apps are the LineageOS apps.

A true AOPS image is missing most core Apps.

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The Email app had been forked into K-9 Mail, which later became Thunderbird for Android. AOSP Browser no longer made sense to develop after Chromium was ported to Android. And so on. The barebones applications in AOSP have been succeeded by better open source apps outside the AOSP repos. It doesn't make sense to maintain them when nobody putting together an Android distribution would choose to use them over those alternatives.
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Because no one was using them. Everyone was replacing them and shipping other apps. AOSP is very modular and customizable letting you configure what apps get included in the OS.
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I think you mean less. Since AOSP is fully open?
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If the openness is important to you, you may want to have a look at other GNU/Linux phones, Librem 5 and Pinephone. The former runs an FSF-endorsed Debian derivative.
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