To make matters worse, most of the time I've successfully argued a project to just use SQL instead of an ORM, what has happened is that people over time built a home rolled ORM in the development language.
replyIt's like people can't just let go.
This is inevitably what happens every single time so just use an ORM and stop being stubborn.
replyThe problem is that "ORM" does a lot of heavy lifting as a term and can mean different things to different people. Like yes, obviously, one needs some sort of SQL -> data structure transition on the boundary (using "object" overfits to OOP!). But that can be extremely light weight. Let people write SQL, have a thin layer to pull the results back out into the appropriate data structures, and move on.
replyEvery good ORM lets you write SQL. Mine for example has a getByQuery and getByWhere as standard methods. An ORM isn't just writing queries for you it's also handling type casting from lang primitives to SQL and back. In 99% of crud rest apis there should be no need to write your own SQL though.
replyAnd then the 100 lines of JS/Py ends up being way slower than the manual SQL, plus the autogen'd SQL part of it is slow, plus you can't even get the SQL query to profile without running the actual thing with prints.
replyYou got it in one, small world huh?
replyWorse, that code will be executed on the receiving end, and waste a bunch of network traffic.
replyThe reason given to use raw SQL is for the performance not the perceived code clarity.
replyIf you never used a CTE, maybe… The reason to use SQL is to get what you need out of a database. Performance is orthogonal to that.
replyI’m not sure why you thought I meant code clarity and not performance? It’s clear in all cases the correct SQL query will be more performant.
replyConfused at what you’re evening trying to say here. Are you suggesting that 100 lines of application layer code is easier to understand than 15 lines of SQL?
The correct SQL query will be more performant than what? The correct ORM call will build the same correct SQL query.
replyORM is ultimately SQL
So there is no CPU cycles for the ORM itself? That’s free?
replyIt's 2026. CPU goes brrr. It's absolutely trivial compared to the query execution time.
replyGreat anecdote. Doesn't validate your claim
replyLooks like I’m not the only one, check the thread.
replyStill just anecdotes. Who cares about those
replyYou’re on a forum where people share anecdotes, so presumably, you?
replyAre you dumb or are you just pretending? I’m going to guess the former!