upvote
The question is about counterfactuals

If unreal cost money up front, would this have been built? No.

Unreal is saying: hey, we contributed to 1/20th of your success, because you could not have done this without us.

Thus, in the event that you're extremely successful, yes, you'll owe unreal a million dollars. But that's only because you made 20mm and keep 19mm for yourself.

That's an incredible bargain.

reply
Shiny, that's why I thought you might've felt it fair, but couldn't have put it this well.
reply
Surely better than this engineer having to pay $100k upfront which would likely mean he never made the game at all. 5% over a million seems pretty reasonable to me. I guess it'd be an issue if profit margins were thin, but that wouldn't be the case here.
reply
Sure as long as we acknowledge that this isn't really free it's just deferred payment
reply
But it is free up to $1mm in revenue. Anyone can go and download the engine and use it as much as they want free. It is really smart and honestly $1mm is a generous entry point to capture a royalty for everyone involved.
reply
They could have just sold the engine, even a subscription is better than royalties. If my game sells more it doesn't cost Epic any more money.
reply
You misunderstand the business model.

Unreal is like venture capital or a book advance (or the equivalent in music record deal)

Can you self publish? Sure, of course, have fun. But if you want the support and infrastructure of a company that understands the business of books, you take a deal and it is just like this: if a bunch of authors get book advances, that is generous to the ones who are unsuccessful, and they can only do that _because they capture the upside of those that are successful_.

Without that, you don't get advances for anyone.

So the point I'm making here: unreal provides variance reduction for all game publishers and yes that disproportionately benefits the ones who make under a million. But they're the ones who need the help!

And in exchange, if you're one of the lucky few, you pay a shockingly reasonable 5% in perpetuity.

reply
I know you’re trolling but come on. The entry price for what you are suggesting would never be obtainable for folks like this kid. You can absolutely negotiate pricing if you are a big enough studio but for hobbyist they let you use it for a royalty. It’s great because it opens it up for everyone. If they charged a fixed fee it would have to be at a very high price.
reply
Not deferred payment for most devs as they do not reach the 1 million revenue
reply
For "the best train sim ever made" they probably reach it.
reply
Sure, and then he can afford it, because he's making over $1M/year revenue on this sim, and taking a very reasonable 5% off the top of that. So it blunts the profits a bit at that point, but it hardly seems like such a terrible thing at that point.
reply
To be able to use this tech in the first place? I have no glue about business problems but this sounds far better then the 30% rip off by apple and Google app stores....
reply
I mean, he's still going to be paying 30% to Steam.
reply
deleted
reply
> 30% rip off by apple and Google app stores

Sounds like a happy problem to me;)

By the way you don't only have to file a report for Epic whenever you release a game using UE, you also have to report them your yearly sales and calculate what income is "directly attributable to UE" for that game. For an ordinary small person, for whom you imply lifetime 5% off gross worldwide revenue is a "happy problem", this is way more involved (and prone to legal liability) compared to app stores. You will probably have to hire people well before the million mark to make sure numbers are OK and you don't accidentally owe Epic $$$$$.

I know which model I would choose. Probably the one where I raise prices by 30% and don't have to deal with anything else.

reply
At the point where you have 1 million in revenue you for sure have an accountant even just to do your yearly business taxes. So reporting to Epic just becomes an extra hour of work to make the report.
reply
Or not. I depends on the country and its tax system.
reply
What is this insane argument. Now you are telling me it’s a burden of paperwork because reporting your revenue gets complicated?
reply
I'm saying it's not a "happy problem":)
reply
There is this high correlation with low quality comments and smiley faces, that and when people like to insult others and put a little winky face at the end.

You are simply making up nonsense. It is not a lot of work as most likely sales are being driven through a handful of platforms. Reporting is simple and no different than doing your taxes. It is very much a happy problem. Similar to having to pay more taxes. There is more burden but you are making more money.

Your argument is insane because Indonesia average income in USD on the high side is around $300. If you make $1mm USD, having to do some extra paperwork and pay $50k per $1mm of revenue is an awesome problem to have.

reply
You're calling my argument insane, you're saying my comment is low quality, and imply I'm the one insulting. What is my argument then, in your opinion?
reply
If that’s all you have to respond then you sir are the one with no argument. I have listed my points multiple times. All you keep saying is “they could offer it at a fixed price”. Well that price would be well above any hobbyist. It is kind of an insane argument. They have had fixed pricing before without royalty and usually that price is north of $1mm. Free + 5% is pretty amazing. There is enough competition in this space that you could always go elsewhere.
reply
If you are a fan of royalty based business models, you can be that. What are you so upset about?
reply
Classic now the “what are you upset about”. Sorry not upset here just love to push back on ridiculous people. Businesses are free to operate however they choose. There are other options in the market outside of unreal ( though they definitely have some of the best tech). 5% is incredibly cheap for small shops. Larger studios will negotiate better rates or potentially a fixed fee. You have still yet to support your argument.
reply
Yeah, you also get updates to the engine, Steam's share is bigger, and you still keep everything else.

I would be okay with getting 75% of everything earned over $1M.

reply
> you also get updates to the engine

They could sell the engine and sell new versions separately as one time purchase.

> I would be okay with getting 75% of everything

I'd be okay getting 70% from the start. That's not what it's about.

reply
If you get a million dollars in revenue as a solo dev, it's pretty much just winning the lottery. You've already spent all the working hours to make the game, so it's pretty much all profit at that point. What costs do you even have?

It's a free choice to use the engine, you can use another engine or make your own if 5% is too much for you.

reply
> If you get a million dollars in revenue as a solo dev, it's pretty much just winning the lottery

You know it's not 1 mil per year, it's 1 mil over your lifetime

reply
The vast, vast majority of indie game devs will not see $1m in revenue in multiple lifetimes.
reply
Should unreal give away their work for free? What is your argument. They don’t take a single royalty until $1mm and 5% is not a wild number considering it’s making use of the engine.

Heck steam takes 30% which is much more egregious but factoring in costs of running steam, payment processing and the free marketing its almost always worth it.

Share a counter argument to how it should be please.

reply
There's many ways that are better than royalties. Just sell the engine as a one time purchasec have a non-profit foundation where sponsors fund development, etc.
reply
If they sold it as a one time purchase this kid would have never been able to use Unreal.
reply
If Adobe sold their suite as one time purchase many creatives who can just afford a monthly subscription couldn't use it. Does it make it a great business model.
reply
Sorry I don’t know what you are trying to say?
reply
What are you trying to say? You can't even get the name of the company right. "unreal" won't give their work away for free. UE is a product, Epic is the company that develops UE.
reply
Sorry I still could not understand your point about Adobe. Instead of getting defensive and attempting to deflect “what’s unreal?” in the context of unreal engine you should try to defend your position.

Edit: NM you are a new account. Shadow banned on my end. Enjoy!

reply