upvote
Everyone uses "intelligence" to mean something slightly different, so for this to be a useful claim to make or refute we need to come up with new, intentionally-pedantic, terms (or new domain-specific definitions for vague existing ones).
reply
At any rate, if the AI's side in this conversation were a human, that would be an extremely intelligent human indeed.

But there's no way the thinking times would have been that short, of course.

reply
Yes, trying to communicate (or watching others try to communicate) about these topics is incredibly frustrating because it's pretty much impossible to make any progress without interrogating people's different definitions, but nobody wants to do that because it would mean being pedantic, splitting hairs, etc.
reply
It's not like this is a new problem. Turing had a definition most of a century ago, he wasn't the first and certainly wasn't the last. I don't think we need new terms necessarily, and I doubt we're all going to agree on a definition tomorrow.
reply
That's not clear at all. What's clear is that this is a very smart man who knows how to use this tool well.
reply
I'd say an entity capable of instructing one of the leading mathematicians of his era is pretty clearly intelligent by any reasonable measure - however it might be arriving at its output.
reply
I'm no intelligence researcher or philosopher; but, I think LLMs make us confront the (IMO, now clear) distinction between cleverness (intuition), reasoning (rational argument), and consciousness. I suspect that we think of "intelligence" as either of the first two welded to the latter. In that vein, I'd say that consciousness may be just another emotion: happiness, sadness, egoness.
reply
> consciousness may be just another emotion: happiness, sadness, egoness.

It's clearly much more than that.

reply

  We have no way to recognise intelligence other than the appearance of intelligence and this very clearly displays that.
There is about 150 years of cognitive science experimentation in animals that have clarified a little bit how you can actually measure intelligence. Ooorrrrr we can use medieval contempt for scientific thinking and pretend "intelligence" is just some higher intuition that can never be falsified. You know it when you see it, bro! Don't listen to Emily Bender, she's a socialist witch.

The point of those cognitive science experiments is that they apply to any animal with a brain and plausibly show a real shared concept of "intelligence" that isn't limited to humans. According to this concept, orcas might be smarter than humans, despite their physiological inability to make tools. It's not a "normal, nonpedantic definition" of intelligence because such a definition would be scientifically meaningless.

Indeed, AI's fundamental sin, going back to Alan Turing, is embracing a definition of intelligence that applies to civilized humans, but not to hunter-gatherers, let alone apes, corvids, and cetaceans. Frustratingly, our modern society has two concepts of intelligence:

- an intuitive, social sense of "how smart is this guy?", which is well-understood and, being highly correlated with IQ, a totally pseudoscientific artifact of human psychology

- the poorly-understood scientific concept I mentioned earlier

If AI researchers cared about scientific thinking, they would be intensely focused on the brains of bees. Insteac they love money and sci-fi but have pure contempt for science, even Demis Hassabis. This is why AI researchers have yet to build a robot that navigates real-world 3D space as intelligently as a cockroach. I don't think any of our grandchildren will live to see a computer smarter than a mouse. (It seems like Fable still struggles with small-number arithmetic. Rodents don't.)

reply
> If AI researchers cared about scientific thinking, they would be intensely focused on the brains of bees.

Basically every academic AI researcher in history was doing what you described. The AI industrialists stopped caring 6 years ago once they realized LLMs seem to have been the only thing in 80 years that actually seems to work at any useful level.

There are plenty of pioneering scientists who are either returning to actual AI research (Yann Lecun, Ilya, etc), and plenty who never left (Richard Sutton) who are doing exactly what you are talking about.

reply
> Basically every academic AI researcher in history was doing what you described.

That is not true. Alan Turing did not view things that way, his test would say that a dog has zero intelligence. Neither did any of the MIT Lispers. And neither do Lecun or Sutskever or Sutton! They are all focused on human intelligence. None of them are even slightly concerned about an AI which is intelligent before it learns any language.

> the only thing in 80 years that actually seems to work at any useful level

This isn't true either! Mathematica / Maple / etc are "old-fashioned AI" and they obviously work. The Lisp expert systems were also useful, though less so than an LLM.

reply
> And neither do Lecun or Sutskever or Sutton! They are all focused on human intelligence. None of them are even slightly concerned about an AI which is intelligent before it learns any language.

??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvibIstOn_E his arguemtn here is clearly built around using some sort of sensory data to build a model of the world like humans (animals) do. also you clearly decline to mention Lecun who has made this point ad-infinitum

> This isn't true either! Mathematica / Maple / etc are "old-fashioned AI" and they obviously work. The Lisp expert systems were also useful, though less so than an LLM.

i personally find it very strange that non-deep learning AI approaches which essentially boiled down to a giant bundle of if statements, or some very simple statistical modeling were called AI in the first place.

reply
There is no intelligence. If anything, this just shows that natural language and mathematics are both fields which are structured in a logically computable way. And if you have a machine that can compute symbolic logic, you can process both natural language and mathematics.

A second corollary is that rational consciousness and thought is less likely to be contained in language than previously thought, because if language is so simple that a machine can process it, it can't contain consciousness.

reply
If natural language was structured in a logically computable way, we'd have had interesting chatbots by the late 80s, basically as soon as a dictionary fit in local RAM, and for the same reason we got compilers.

Da hole raisin y nat-lang be v. hard is dat i kan rite lik dis an it be cool 4 native engrish speekrs 2 unerstand. LLMs are of course fine with this sentence in exactly the way that Zork's engine couldn't be.

reply
The underlying structure of language, which is grammar, is obviously logical. That the symbols used to represent this grammar can be sometimes fuzzy or ambiguous, is no problem for a machine that takes context and probability into account when translating words to the underlying grammar structure.
reply
It's not "obviously logical", it's a pattern which we mimic to avoid mockery.

example For, semi-randomise I word order can this like, Yoda worse than, and be understood.

> is no problem for a machine that takes context and probability into account when translating words to the underlying grammar structure.

We had to invent Transformers to be able to do that with reliability anything close to being worth caring about. Transformers have to learn from examples, not be pre-programmed.

reply
The idea that grammar is all it takes to process natural language is absolute beans.
reply