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Regardless of the motivations behind the paper, the fact is that they are right. It's a topsy-turvy world where America closes up and China opens, and I hope it gets corrected soon.

And besides, it seems to me like the ethical choice. Given how these models are, in some very real sense, mechanical plagiators, built on the generosity of creators past and present, some of them now in danger of being replaced by the machine. I think the least the labs can do is open these models up. These and other such considerations were the reason OpenAI started with that name. Of course, it was questionable that those ideals would survive the encounter with generational wealth. Just look up what the founders of Google were saying about advertising when they were two students tinkering at an as of yet unproven tech. Same thing for OpenAI, self-interest speaks that much louder when there's real money on the table.

It just boggles the mind that people now make excuses for their all-too-predictable about-turn.

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> I think the least the labs […]

Perhaps worth not calling them "labs". Are they not (for-profit) companies?

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Of course but I think labs is a good term. Like a lot of terms like this it comes from history. The people working on AI at these places come predominantly from academia and predominantly do research. Of course now these companies are far more than just a “lab” and I can imagine their headcount may be more non-research folks at this point but most of the results are indeed coming from the “lab”-y areas
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> It's a topsy-turvy world where America closes up and China opens

There's nothing "open" about China. Google, meta, openai, etc all blocked. Go visit and see how it goes when you try to access your gmail or open facebook. Try to use chatgpt. Try to get citizenship and see how that goes. China blocks many western companies with their great firewall and force internal similar products. This is smart, China wants to prioritize their own.

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Your examples are the typical case, which is why OpenAI being closed and Kimi/DeepSeek/Qwen being open is topsy-turvy.
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Im guessing parent meant more open in this particular case, i.e open weight models vs closed cloud hosted. Obviously china is not an open country.
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He means specifically open vs closed AI model development, and how that’s topsy-turvy for the reasons you mention.
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well let's be clear, there's nothing open about an open-weight model.

To me, "open these models up. " must mean provide all the data and supporting documentation required to reproduce the model. That would be "open". Postgres is open because you can download all the data and supporting documentation and reproduce the binary yourself. However, being able to only download a postgres binary would make it no longer open.

Additional training on top of an open-weight model sounds analogous to writing mods for minecraft. You may change some behavior but that doesn't make minecraft "open".

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It's open, with a small 'o', and no moral judgements attached to it.

1. You have the weights, so you can run the model yourself on your own hardware. 2. You have the weights, so you can do post-training and shift those weights for your own purposes. It's not the same as training the model, but for many people its fine as what we want is a quantization, or a fine tune, or to create hybrid models.

What they don't give you are the training data, and reproduction instructions but... the toolchain to create the software has never been a part of 'Open Source'.

Even though it feels like a huge loophole, it's technically open source if you deliver the source code, without having a compiler that's available so you force them to recreate the toolchain from scratch.

To me, though, a better analogy is to research science where you'll be happy when they give you the full result set they compiled even if you don't get the raw data which may have IP or privacy concerns, or their often poorly documented lab notes so you can actually reproduce.

What you want to do is run your own experiment, and get your own results... not duplicate theirs directly. Even if reproduction is your aim in science, being unable to reproduce without copious notes sometimes points out that the original experimental process must have been flawed.

LLMs have the same issue. The creation process isn't entirely well documented, and the raw data can't be released since although the company have the right to use certain sources, they can't transfer those rights to others.

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Sure, I'm all for opening the whole enchilada. But at least Chinese AI development is more open than the US one. And not just on the weights front, but AFAIK also more open when it comes to the techniques used and lessons learned in the process (DeepSeek at least is). Which is in a sense even more valuable and laudable.
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Weights are the cake and source is the recipe. Except you aren’t going to spend millions working through the recipe to arrive at the same exact cake anyway, so why do you care?
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The problem with that analogy is that compiling Postgres takes a few minutes. Training a model takes hundreds of thousands of dollars (at least) and specialized hardware.

Having a standardized training set is valuable, though.

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Here here! Open weights is the term because it's close to open source but everyone thinks everyone else is an idiot and saying the model is downloadable but you can't recreate it is too difficult for our feeble minds to understand. There are actually open source models out there though, with datasets and training code.
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I think it has more to do with the fact that there has to be some term to describe the concept of "model which has weights that are openly accessible"

Like, that's just a logical thing to call it. I don't believe anyone is making a judgement on the intelligence of the reader to call it "open weight" when it refers to weights that are openly available.

"Open source" would be a more appropriate term to describe a model which also includes the training source.

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Indeed.
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This is some bizarre victim inversion. The providers of closed models are the ones who are trying to use regulation to stop their open model competition, not the other way around.
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This is how it is with all of these guys, their only principle is "what's good for me", and will twist all narratives to fit it
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That's why competition is good though
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I don't think that is what is happening.

Instead a bunch of tech companies are gathering to try to stop OpenAI and Anthropic fear-bouncing the White House and the Republican Congress into giving them regulatory capture and repeating the mistakes they are making around RISC-V.

Those mistakes won't just entrench two companies, they will entrench the bigger-better-faster-more model (closed companies making ever bigger cloud-bound models) when it is abundantly clear that enormous progress can still be made on smaller, even desktop-bound models (where, due to distribution, open weights are essentially inevitable).

Regulatory capture that stops open weights work will also have impacts on local and on-device AI work, as well as on academic research.

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I'm very confused by this comment, I don't know who you're referring to.
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None of the people signed this have ever produced a frontier model at a given date (Which is to say its neither Google/OAI/Ant). The ones that sign are meta, musk (who is in the shovel selling business as well), hugging face obviously and few others

Note: Just pointing out the comment intent and nothing else

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OK, I guess my confusion was that the effort to ban open weights models is what I would categorize as "groveling at the white house to try to stop their competition".
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Google has produced Gemini Pro, Meta produced llama3-70B/llama3-405B and now has Muse, Musk has Grok. These are very capable models and to claim that they are not frontier is to stretch the meaning unless you want to say "#1 model" Gemini Pro at one point even if for a week, was #1 model.
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Musk didn’t sign it.

nVidia did and they released good models – same with Meta, Microsoft, IBM, Mistral – all are signatories.

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ha! who is groveling to the white house to stop competition? openai, anthropic and google, they are the losers. if they want to compete, compete.
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You can call out regulatory capture evwn when you would do the same if the shoe were on the other foot.
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I thought the whole point of open software development was anyone could take your thing and improve it.

It would seem as if the community either isn't doing that or is relying on the Chinese to do that.

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I thought this would be a push for a nationwide open weights effort / initiative, but I was surprised to see this:

> Distillation ... reflects a long tradition of learning from, building upon, and improving existing technologies, a tradition that has helped drive innovation since the rise of the open-source software movement. By contrast, unlawful efforts to extract value from closed models raise legitimate concerns. Those concerns should be addressed through targeted legal and commercial frameworks rather than sweeping restrictions on techniques that play an important role in AI innovation.

Sounds like they are saying "please protect our IP theft" that created closed weight frontier models in case we arbitrarily decide to close our models. But don't get rid of distillations in general so that we can all also keep benefiting from open models. We don't want to lose the ability to benefit from the work of others as we launder IP into closed models.

Surprised Linux Foundation kept their name on it with that.

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"..a tradition that has helped drive innovation since the rise of the open-source software"

i've said this in other comments but the fact that these companies are trying to align with open-source when there's no "source" included with their models is pretty damning. I think it lays bare the absence of any kind of noble or righteous motive with respect to distillation.

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