One such example is CVE-2023-45853 [1]. Zlib included in it's source an extra set of utilities and add-ons. One such utility, MiniZip, had a buffer overflow vulnerability. BAM, 8.8 CVE (was a 9, looks like they pulled it back a bit). But not one that the 99% of applications using zlib would ever be vulnerable to because almost nobody used the MiniZip utility. It was so unused that the solution for zlib was to simply remove it.
I know about this one particularly because our security policy required us to do a BUNCH of pointless updates for it since zlib is in just about everything.
deprecated("@:1.3 +minizip", reason="cve", severity="high")
Deprecation on versions only isn't the right granularity.
I keep feeling like the entire CVE system is creaking and about to fail- the signal-to-noise on that has gone so far down, the gate-keeper function that MITRE et al are supposed to be providing clearly has fallen apart, but we do need some way of tracking problems and alerting on bugs in commonly reused libraries. So I can see the problems with the current system, I just can't envision the new, better system to build to replace it.
And you’re right, I don’t know all the ways this can be combined with other attacks related to the shell.
But when I design a system the security people at work tell me to assume any bad thing can happen in a user process and design the process isolation and policies to contain it.
Entire categories of attacks (Dos) etc are futile to do anything in user space. Just limit resources and call it a day.
My condolences to anyone who’s got to deal with all these slop-y CVEs on one side and brain dead security teams on the other.
go lang has a scanner [0] which only shows issues when the code actually calls the effected functions.
If you keep driving the "seperate the packages" angle you end up with is-odd, and that not a nice play to be either.
Say you distribute your application to a customer and link against libzip, and that customer points to the minizip 8.8 CVE above and says "if you don't fix this vulnerability our scanner is flagging, we are required to stop using your product", that'll cause you plenty of problems even though you don't use nor provide any way to reach the vulnerable code.
That sort of blind CVE adherence is so common in the industry that it's usually easier to do meaningless updates than fight back.
1. A vulnerability that presents itself very rarely
2. If it presents itself, it is fatal to the organization
So, few targets are affected, but the outsized effect means that the overall economic impact is not insignificant. How does one keep track of that?
One method is to use a sort of "kirchhoff's law" approach, similar to google page rank. The electrical analogy would be:
- the attacker has a high potential, let's say 1000V. that attacker is the root of a rose tree, going from top to bottom, branching out towards the bottom.
- nodes impossible to exploit present edges with infinite resistance
- nodes that can be exploited present finite resistance (perhaps very low)
- once a node is exploited, its node branches out to other things that now become accessible and may or may not be exploited
- real economic impact presents a connection to ground, measured as 1/($economic impact) ohms resistance
Once you have a structure like that, you can measure the hypothetical current that would be flowing, and measure the severity of such exploits.
Sometimes a single path through a complex system can blow up vital, important parts, and this could be one way to measure it in some sort of objective manner.
When does something become a ground can be very difficult to figure out with the above complexity.
CVE should just be far more granular instead of flagging alert for anything using zlib
Security can be a major pain in the ass, and it's pretty often we see CVEs that were low valued suddenly become more urgent when someone finds a better way to use them as an exploit.
Anyone who's ever done even a beginner CTF knows that achieving code execution is a big deal.
Even if some individual case can be shown to be safe from being combined, can we identify such cases with enough confidence to justify using it reduce severity warnings?
In testing with LLMs with good exploit finding capabilities and a lack of guardrails on writing exploits, quite often LLMs will chain together a surprising stack of exploits to get what they want. They'll get access via a weak, but limited user. They'll search around laterally until they find something else. For example User A (weak exploit) -> User B -> User B bad configuration -> root (or application takeover).
They don't get bored like humans and they can be more robust than a set of scripts by far in catching errors when their scripts don't work or interesting things show up in their findings. The huggingface break down is a good example of just how much lateral movement an LLM can try with enough processing power behind it.
This is where the security onion gets messy. It can be hard to predict when compromising one layer actually bypasses many other layers of your security.
I suppose all these fake issues and the many more that have absurdly elevated severities could be considered an attack on the system itself, stripping it of credibility.
On top of that, ability to prompt about flaws makes all the difference in the world. If you know what you're doing you can get better results. Problem, very few people know what they are doing.
Going back to the money/time problem, LLMs are not deterministic. Much like the day you forgot to drink coffee, running LLM systems against code can get different results where things are found or not found. That or two different things are found on two different runs (with the same code) because attention was stolen by the first issue it found.
So yea, in the LLM age proof is in the exploit pudding. Who cares if you're taken seriously, if you dump out an exploit that works the seriousness is now on the defenders time and people will scramble to fix it.
"But what about exploit embargos"... Well, you just found the exploit with an LLM, how many other nefarious groups do you think are already exploiting it? The age of sitting on problems is dead.
CVE-1972-404: The code is written in C. ^_^
However if I was writing this response just one year ago I would instead be saying: the majority off LLM CVS are noise where the code is correct, and often they are writing up for code that doesn't even exist.
Which is to say I suspect the repo in question was generated with a year-old LLM, since they act like that. The new ones [mostly?] are much better.
Still, if a modern LLM points out something you should fix it. Even if we can't figure out how to exploit it today that doesn't mean we won't figure it out in the future.
I suspect there are a lot of people running inexpensive models that are searching for vulnerabilities across a lot of projects, probably in an automated way (ex with openclaw or similar) in the hopes of winning a bounty and/or noteriety.
This is not true if you consider security-in-depth. Many of them are exploitable on their own but maybe not in combination with other issues that are as yet unknown or known but not patched everywhere.
As a simple example a local privilege escalation issue that is not exploitable on a device that only I ever have access to, essentially becomes a remote root access flaw if you have untrusted or unreliable users (clients with accounts for instance) on the system. This works on a finer grain too, seemingly minor issues spread through the kernel and user space can add up to a serious exploit.
Security is an onion, you have lots of layers because layers peel off and fail all the time. With your current setup a single foothold gives an attacker all the lateral movement they need for full exploitation of every single thing you own blowing past the other layers.
that requiring access to a privileged network is NOT a sufficient security boundary! Someone you don't like always somehow ends up getting access to the network.
I convinced the customer to accept the delivery by pointing out that (1) our app had zero lines of ocaml and (2) the feature had been implemented in the ocaml driver since the CVE was issued.
Perhaps in isolation. The issue is when you can chain exploits to bypass multiple layers.
My experience in such environments leads me to believe this is going to be a rough ride for those heavily locked-down enterprises, because depending on the environment, an exception of "this CVE was hallucinated by AI" is probably going to be difficult to get accepted, and when it does, starts to become its own avenue for exploitation and adds even more noise and confusion to the mix.
The funnier, Kafakaesque problem of the day is interactions with mandatory cooldown periods on new versions because of supply chain risks.
I’ve had a couple tickets get stuck because the CVE scanner says I have to update, but the cooldown enforcer says the version hasn’t been out long enough.
In enterprise software..... I only dream of work where some ancient version isn't pinned because 200 person hours are need to adapt the code to newer versions.
And the update versus cooldown are fun. Can't win either way you go.
Rebuild broke half your tests. People are exploiting the CVE against your system right now. Good luck!
spending time on fake CVEs while people are exploiting real 0days against your system.
What actually needs to be done is human review, vetting, and approval of those. Otherwise, it's just unknown/unnecessary/potentially dangerous changesets in high quantities.
Now, if you're an F100 that's currently not using Anthropic it's pretty likely you can go to them now and ask for a non-guardrailed unlimited Mythos trial for a month you can get an agent that will not only find bugs for you, but also write exploits in a framework that will demonstrate them in action. Once you see an AI chain a bunch of shit together, get a foothold and then expand around laterally in your system you start getting concerned about how you're going to keep up.
The time has come to pay for our sins of shit security.
And that's great! Now the human in the loop can verify the accuracy of each finding and take responsibility for moving it forward.
> and I will lay odds that the blackhats are leveraging them to the max.
We just need more humans in the loop to do that more quickly, each putting their own reputation on the line with each CVE they determine to be legit.
AI doesn't stand for "accountability irrelevant", even though most people act like it does.
Of course what will really happen is anyone looking for problems will stop going to the source for fixes and will start gaining cred in the dark markets of exploits and problems, which is better for everyone, right?
Just because someone is using AI doesn't mean they didn't find a bug, it's more likely they just have no means of determining if it's a real bug or not, so to the maintainers tickets seem random. The problem comes in when clever attackers can take these untrustworthy tickets and run them through another LLM that determines if an exploit is possible and then uses the attacks it finds before anyone has a chance to patch.
I believe people took this comment as LLMs being better than security aware engineers who have the time to spend building solid systems.
This wasn't the point, the reality outside "established" tech companies is that software security can be lackluster.
There often simply isn't enough resources to check old software for basic vulnerabilities, outdated packages with known issues, there might be a manager who insists on a certain solution. Or that certain services are on "maintenance mode", but rarely get checked since they're on a certain part of the internal network.
If they are able to properly scan their full software stack for CVE issues, they cannot deal with a flood of CVEs.
----
We're in a transition period where AI will eventually make software much more secure than it ever was.
These noisy CVEs will probably lead to agents verifying vulnerabilities before humans review them.
The problem with agent reviews from what I can think of is:
- cost to use LLMs to review things
- not necessarily easy to plug-and-play in repos: (domain knowledge + vulnerability knowledge)
- especially with anthropic: able to use models defensively, without hitting guardrails
The last one is the most interesting one to me. How does the AI providers know if you're a "good or bad" guy? And does it matter if open source models is catching up?
We're in a kind of cyber arms race wether we like it or not.
Where is this one now that was hyped everywhere?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49133889
The GitHub submitter could no longer reproduce the issue and the LKML post has no replies:
https://lore.kernel.org/all/CALCETrXbj__SFQMzPZhES5y6-sh4np-...
The reality is that humans aren't perfect, so we do not make "perfect programs".
It is also possible to test it yourself to see how good LLMs are at finding software issues:
Find any open source project that isn't huge, then have Kimi 3 review it for potential issues.
You will find code "issues".
Most of the time it won't be detrimental for security, but often there are code paths that are not "accounted for", or you're able to bypass a type of check by interacting with the software in a strange way.
This is where quantity becomes a quality. Actors with huge budgets and at least a small team to keep the AIs on track now have an immense amount of potential power. Anthropic has somewhat resisted in giving state actors like this full access to 'dangerous' models, but it appears other companies like OpenAI have no such reservations.
Before such states may have difficulty hiring enough security researchers/hackers. Now you can spin them up. Someone with a few data centers of GPU compute and enough proxies could probably blitzkrieg the internet in a day and capture ungodly amounts of information.
Could be Dunning-Kruger, but if AI models continue to get better this trend will surely continue.
2. Even in exploit development, his original field, he might be able to find vulnerabilities in mature, well-maintained software with security programs. But would he charge $20k or more for that service? Say it with me, Claude: “Absolutely!”