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(Meta: I understand some folks aren't a fan of nuclear. I disagree, but recognize people have different values and weighing of priorities. But I just find it fucking stupid that coal was left to keep running by people who claim that climate change is a priority. Certainly a discussion can be had about pros/cons of new nuclear, but why the fuck would you prioritize closing current nuclear over coal?)
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Well first, coal went down, too, if we are still discussing Germany. In parallel with shrinking nuclear generation. See the cleanenergywire link upthread for the numbers. So the coal vs. nuclear discussion is baseless already (again, if we still talk about Germany).

Secondly, energy != electricity. Coal is mostly used for central heating (a plant heats water, water is then transported to a whole neighborhood). Electricity is sometimes also produced, but usually not the primary reason for the plant to exist in the first place. Nuclear plants are usually used for generating electricity (in Germany). Germanys carbon problem is the heating infrastructure being dependant on fossil fuels (mostly gas), but it has no lack of electricity sources.

Thanks for stating your openmindedness re/ nuclear discussion, BTW, IME statements like this can really lift the whole level of discourse.

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Germany was shamed endlessly for not shutting down coal plants fast enough by the same nuclear fans who didn't make a peep about Poland making a decision to be 80% coal for ages.

It raised some interesting questions about priorities.

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Some people know how to look up GDP per capita numbers.
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Who are those people that kept coal running but claim climate change is a priority? Because they are not the german green party, that much I know.
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The Greens were not in Office when the nuclear exit was decided 2011.

The Greens actually prolonged their life time during Covid, after RWE, EON and EnBW argued that it does not make sense economically to let them run longer.

No insurer wanted to insure nuclear, and no energy company wanted to keep losing money on nuclear.

Since nuclear is the most expensive form of energy generation, it makes sense to switch it off first.

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> The Greens were not in Office when the nuclear exit was decided 2011.

Schröder was talking about it in 2000:

* https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/jun/15/johnhooper

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schröder#Domestic_poli...

Oh, and he was appointed to Gazprom (and other Russian energy companies) after leaving politics:

* https://www.dw.com/en/former-chancellor-schröder-sworn-in-at...

(He did encourage renewables as well.)

> No insurer wanted to insure nuclear, and no energy company wanted to keep losing money on nuclear.

The German government(s) helped kickstart the global solar price drop by their subsidy programs in the early 2000s that allowed for economies of scale, so I'm surprised that—if they're really worried about climate change—they would not subsidize the alleged expenses of running the low-carbon generation of nuclear.

> Since nuclear is the most expensive form of energy generation, it makes sense to switch it off first.

It's so expensive that prices in France, which generates >60% of power with nuclear, are at the same levels (or lower) as Germany, while producing less carbon per kWh than Germany (a quarter from some articles I've found).

See perhaps:

> […] Alternatively, Germany could have kept the existing nuclear power in 2002 and possibly invest in new nuclear capacity. The analysis of these two alternatives shows that Germany could have reached its climate gas emission target by achieving a 73% cut in emissions on top of the achievements in 2022 and simultaneously cut the spending in half compared to Energiewende. Thus, Germany should have adopted an energy policy based on keeping and expanding nuclear power.

* https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14786451.2024.2...

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Politically that would have been done how? I think in restropect removing nuclear powerplants that make awful targets in a conflict doesn't strike me as a bad choice either.
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> Politically that would have been done how? I think in restropect removing nuclear powerplants that make awful targets in a conflict doesn't strike me as a bad choice either.

The only people causing conflict is Russia, and Germany had to be dragged kicking and screaming in shutting down Russian supply pipelines, so don't go talking about "security" when the actions from Berlin showed there was zero consideration for it:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream

When the architect of the retirement ends up on the board of Gazprom:

* https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/jun/15/johnhooper

* https://www.dw.com/en/former-chancellor-schröder-sworn-in-at...

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An adversary could not strike a nuclear powerplant? I said in retrospect in my view, didn't I, not that it was a consideration then (or now).

Gazprom suspended supply via NS1 indefinitely before it was destroyed.

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Actually no, or unlikely, since it’s a massive escalation. Even in Ukraine Russia does not strike the nuclear plants. They strike all the other power plants though.

So it’d actually be the safer option.

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> It's so expensive that prices in France, which generates >60% of power with nuclear, are at the same levels (or lower) as Germany, while producing less carbon per kWh than Germany (a quarter from some articles I've found).

Maybe you should take a closer look how those prices come to be.

Every single nuclear watt is being subsidised and has been for decades.

Last time they wanted to play the free market game, they had to bring the company back into the forgiving hands of the French taxpayer.

I have rather Germany invest into future tech then waste it on rotting reactors which are obviously unfit for the current state of global warming already.

Nuclear was clogging up the grid with it's expensive energy. It is gone now and the grid is diversifying while it follows the path of complete decarbonisation.

There is absolutely no reason to look back for Germany and only those whose ideology is "looking back" seriously do that currently.

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> Every single nuclear watt is being subsidised and has been for decades.

This is just plain false. In the 1990s and early 2000s, EDF was generating a whole lot of profit, which it wanted to reinvest. The governments of the time (both left and right) said: "Nope! We’ll take that, thank you." As a result EDF stopped making new nuclear plants and, most importantly, new nuclear engineers and technicians. When the government suddenly decided to have EDF build a new plant 15 years later, the 1980s generation was all but gone, the industrial know-how had vanished, and thi construction costs very logically skyrocketed. Oh, and in the meantime EDF had been (and still is) forced to sell electricity to its competitors under production cost.

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> Every single nuclear watt is being subsidised and has been for decades.

You won't find any grid which isn't subsidized, remember Germany already spent ~2x the French grid and that didn't spend by itself.

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Germany isn't setting a fixed end consumer price and hides all that happens behind the tax-cushioned curtains.
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> Every single nuclear watt is being subsidised and has been for decades.

So is everything else.

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Can coal plants buy insurance against global warming? Can a hydroelectric dam buy insurance against downstream flooding?

Very few things in the power grid has insurance against major accidents. It is even doubtful for example if a forest fires caused by transmission lines will be repaid in full by the insurance of the power company, and to the degree that will pay all costs to property and land owners

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I agree with everything you say, but the initial "Atomausstieg" was decided in 2000/put into law in 2002, when the Greens were in office. The exit was delayed in 2010 (and then accelerated again in 2011) by the CDU/CSU/FDP, but the initial decision for the exit was very with involvement of the Green party
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And Europe would be in even bigger black-out trouble right now as half of those 20 GW of nuclear power would not be running due to missing cooling water, just like is the case in the other European countries.

The german green part certainly isn't perfect, but they had a plan. A plan that included far more renewable energies than currently build. The ones that orchestrated the ultimate end of nuclear energy while shutting down build up of renewables are the conservatives. Blaming someone for a half executed plan is childish. Especially when it is from a party that supposedly had economic competence yet killed tens of thousands of jobs.

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