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by bonoboTP11 hours ago |
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upvoteby fluidcruft11 hours ago|
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The problem is the vicious feedback nowadays of online student evaluations of professors. Professors that are rigorous get complaints and low rankings, kids don't sign up for their sections etc. Kids (parents) pay the administration and the administration wants to keep the customer happy. The only real answer are standardized exams (such as licensure exams) which are beyond parent pocketbook capture.
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upvoteby bonoboTP11 hours ago|
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Or like Europe. You don't pay tuition, but if you slack off, and don't progress properly, you only have a limited number of exam retries and limited number of funded semesters. If you fail, you're out, choose another profession. You're not a customer, you're someone who is trying to prove themselves and get certified by experts on their knowledge. The "customer" of the university is whoever will glance at the degree paper and tries to ascertain the skill/knowledge level of the outgoing student. They have to give a good signal there. The reason this doesn't work in the US, is because they want mediocre children of rich parents to be pushed through, because college is a networking and social class-based finishing school, not a place for acquiring knowledge.

(Also, there should be electives, but the rigorous backbone of a degree should be mandatory, so "students won't choose this course" doesn't come up.)

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upvoteby otterley10 hours ago|
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> The reason this doesn't work in the US, is because they want mediocre children of rich parents to be pushed through, because college is a networking and social class-based finishing school, not a place for acquiring knowledge.

Out of curiosity, which US university did you attend? I went to a well-known and highly-regarded public university in California, and they absolutely did not coddle their students. Poor-performing students regularly washed out.

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upvoteby bonoboTP10 hours ago|
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None, but have interacted with American students at European universities and they were very lost without all the coddling and all kinds of support infrastructure and basically getting their life organized by administrators who personally attended to their matters and reminded them a million times about deadlines and so on. They were unprepared for actually having to manage their own studies, read up on rules, find out where to register for something, until when, etc. etc.
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upvoteby otterley10 hours ago|
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That happens when American students first join US universities too. It takes a few weeks for freshmen to get acquainted with the new reality of being completely responsible for handling their affairs and ensuring their success. It’s nothing to slam them about; that’s an artifact of coming from a system that provides more guide rails during primary education and childhood than European children might enjoy.
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upvoteby bonoboTP10 hours ago|
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American colleges give way more support throughout the studies though. In Europe you're literally alone and nobody cares if you miss deadlines or you're failing out. No general consultations, no extra departments and admin bloat. You have to have your shit together.
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upvoteby otterley8 hours ago|
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It really depends on the university. Mine wasn't particularly helpful in this regard. They sent me a form-letter warning by mail once, when my GPA sank too low one quarter (this was before email was ubiquitous). And they did have some counseling resources available, but the resource-to-student ratio was very, very low. I would not call it white-glove service by any means.

Perhaps you also don't have a comprehensive picture as to what is available to students across every university in Europe. Europe, like America, is a big place and, like America, the situation probably varies by institution. As with most things, the answer is probably more nuanced than general observations would make it seem.

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upvoteby otterley10 hours ago|
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Tenure protects professors against students' complaints (often for the better, sometimes for the worse). Also, the administration already knows that students complain about professors who are tough, and don't typically pay heed to those complaints. Parents don't really have recourse either: what are they going to do, send their kid to Podunk State instead?
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upvoteby fluidcruft10 hours ago|
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Yes indeed. College departments are well-known for cutting the ranks of the professors who have proven track records of boosting enrollment in favor of awarding tenure to the professors who can't get butts in seats.
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upvoteby otterley10 hours ago|
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I don’t think you understand how universities work. Which US university did you attend?
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upvoteby fluidcruft8 hours ago|
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I don't think you understand how hiring, promotion and departmental finances works at US universities for roughly the last two decades.
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upvoteby otterley7 hours ago|
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I am very well aware, having close relationships with multiple faculty professors in my family to this day. Practically none of it has anything to do with student ratings.

Which university did you attend? I asked you once already; put up or shut up.

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upvoteby fluidcruft6 hours ago|
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Why does which college I attended have more bearing than the ones I have and do work at? I don't particularly care for your stupid irrelevant demand and I am refusing to engage it.

I, my parents, my in-laws and my siblings are all academics. I don't need to prove anything to you. My brother is faculty at an ivy and literally what I am describing is what is currently going on in his department because the administration has foisted MBA brainrot "performance metrics" that are easily gamed by students and faculty who don't particularly care to teach but need points in their portfolios.

Students are entitled "I'm the customer, and I'm always right and I'm paying you a lot" twats who get the administration to bail them out if they don't get As for half-assed work. It's similar but not as bad at R1 state universities where I work and have worked.

You are completely out of touch and which university you or I attended in the 90s (two generations ago) is completely irrelevant.

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upvoteby otterley6 hours ago|
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Is your brother actually a full tenured professor? Does he bring in grants and endowments and is well known in the research community? Is he being threatened with serious punitive action for not giving into individual student demands? There is a tremendous difference in treatment between those who are fully tenured and those who aren’t. Lecturers and adjunct professors are frequently treated differently, and I accounted for that in my original reply by referencing the tenure track.

Students can ask for whatever they want. It doesn’t mean they will get it, unless maybe they are VIPs at Ivy League schools, and those are a sliver of the total population of university students. Don’t mistake the minuscule minority for the majority.

You’re letting your personal experience cloud the full and diverse picture of reality. Consider that we may both be right depending on the circumstances.

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upvoteby fluidcruft5 hours ago|
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I don't give a shit what you "accounted for", you're hot air with no teeth in the game passing yourself off as some sort of "expert" or knowledgeable about anything. I might as well talk to a LLM.
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upvoteby otterley5 hours ago|
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You’ve gone fully off the rails and are making things personal. I’m done with this thread.
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upvoteby fluidcruft5 hours ago|
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I appreciate you and that you still believe the lies of how academics works.
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