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Ok, take it the other way.

You want to marry someone? Make sure the government approves for your safety.

Want to make dinner? First you have to send the recipe to your local overseer with proof of your safe cooking credentials or you will have to pay heafty fines for noncompliance.

Want to make love, read a book, speak your mind, make a contract with someone, work the job you want? Sorry, you can't decide that yourself, first the politburo must approve it.

Sounds great!

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Let's say parents want to protect their kid from harmful apps and websites. What would be better: 1) tick a sinlge "child mode" checkbox to use government-approved configuration (which they can edit if they are unemployed and have too much free time) 2) go through hundreds of menus to configure the policy themselves?

Today OS developers implement inferior option 2 and refuse to implement superior option 1. How do you solve the problem without government involvement?

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None of those come with the downside of a permanently stored record of my conversations attached to ID.
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> No ID checks at clubs, bars, or other adults-only venues.

Those are mostly there because of alcoholic drinks being served and the venue wants to create a certain atmosphere. There are plenty of parents that would take their kids there if they could.

The rest is not just there for kids but also for adults (or elderly).

There is a bunch of adults who would step in a hole in the ground or fall off a balcony.

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So why are ID checks necessary at venues that serve alcoholic drinks in particular, out of all the venues that exist?
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1) venue is in meatspace, 2) age can be eyeballed, 3) they don't routinely hoard data, 4) they don't routinely leak hoarded data, 5) they aren't monopoly with billions of users routinely extorted for PII, 6) they don't routinely leak all that hoarded data, 7) they don't have bots, 8) they aren't connected to PRISM for routine surveillance, 9) they don't routinely leak all the hoarded data, 10) they don't sell hoarded data on black market, 11) they don't sell hoarded data to thousands of business partners, 12) they don't have thousands business partners that routinely hoard, leak and resell data

Maybe that's why metabase was hacked - to conceal sale of data. "It's just a hack, it happens, we fixed the hole, nothing to see here until we find the next buyer".

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> 1) venue is in meatspace, 2) age can be eyeballed, 3) they don't routinely hoard data, 4) they don't routinely leak hoarded data, 5) they aren't monopoly with billions of users routinely extorted for PII, 6) they don't routinely leak all that hoarded data, 7) they don't have bots, 8) they aren't connected to PRISM for routine surveillance, 9) they don't routinely leak all the hoarded data, 10) they don't sell hoarded data on black market, 11) they don't sell hoarded data to thousands of business partners, 12) they don't have thousands business partners that routinely hoard, leak and resell data

So your argument is that ID checks are necessary simply because they are possible, and not a privacy invasion?

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They are possible, not necessary.
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> They are possible, not nevessary.

The question was why they are necessary.

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While what you say seem intuitive, it is missing one point. Those locations probably are not recording exactly who is coming and going and what they are saying/doing.

That is where this become more than just gate keeping and becomes full on tracking.

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You are saying something quite different to the comment I responded to:

> The right people to protect children are those responsible for them - their parents and guardians.

My position is that there is a social responsibility to protect children which extends to the community at large, not just their immediate guardians.

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Yes. There is also an inequality issue because not all parents/guardians are equipped to afford the same protections for their children. For example, there are parents out there who would let their children smoke at 8 years old because they don't care. This isn't fair. Such lack of care becomes abuse and parents shouldn't have a right to abuse their children.

It's really on us to figure out how we can have things like the internet without harming children. Now, this is quite annoying, because I have never, and would never, give a child access to the internet in the first place. The internet was never driving around on public streets. I never wanted to force it on anyone.

We all dropped the ball here. We've all accepted and even celebrated more and more of our lives being online. But, more importantly, nobody noticed when children started to get smartphones with internet access. In my mind this is no different than giving children cigarettes or other adult materials. But nobody batted an eye. I'm also not surprised, though. Loads of people here have made tons of money from children having access to the internet.

Unfortunately it's so hard to go back from something like this. So we end up in this stupid situation where people will accept more surveillance because we can't just take phones away from children.

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You are being facetious.
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I really don't believe that they are. Historically, communities raised children, and leaving everything up to parents is an anomaly.
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Historically those communities were quite small and we typically had a feeling of kinship with them trough families, tribes/clans, village life, etc.
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You are talking about leaving "everything" to the parents.

Those are extreme positions.

There are things where you want the government to intervene.

There are things where you don’t want the government to intervene.

What I do in my bedroom should not be monitored by the government.

Me speeding on the road should be monitored by the government.

Conversations I am having online should not be monitored by the government.

It’s my job to teach my kid how to behave when he is bullied at school. The government does not help with that. It is my job to make sure my kid does not become the bully. The government does not help with that.

It is also my job to teach my kid what the internet is, that there are wackos out there, and how to recognize dangerous patterns. That’s life.

If you think this is to save the children…

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A lot of clubs in a lot of places scan and store your ID on entrance.
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>No ID checks at clubs, bars, or other adults-only venues. No school zone speed limits, or protected crossings on streets near schools.

>No requirements for railings on public balconies, fencing around public pools, protective covers over drains or other holes in the ground.

>Parents/guardians can just supervise.

>Sounds great!

I know you're commenting in bad faith, but at the margin essentially nothing would change except the amount of whining from people of your bent when someone doesn't get punished enough.

The primary determinant of whether society engages in all those activities is not the government but the level of wealth to pay for it all.

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