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> But the real question is: Is it okay to steal

By definition it cannot be stealing since you're paying for the tokens. It may be against their ToS, depending on what you end up doing with those tokens, but it cannot be stealing. If they charge by the token, all your tokens are belong to you :)

I also find it very strange that everyone sort of accepts their ToS like no big deal. Imagine MS using the same terms for their software - you cannot use any MS software to develop competing services. Bananas! They'd be dragged through the courts like it's the 90s.

(I get why they're doing it. Distillation is unreasonably effective. But still, I find it bananas that we've kinda accepted it, to the point where people use "stealing" or "attack" or any such terms)

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I love how some of the biggest advancements in llms came from the Chinese labs, yet people still jump to distillation being unreasonably effective. Distillation is very good at creating smaller models from large ones sure, but nothing to me indicates it is 'unreasonably effective' compared to all the other bells and whistles being iterated on
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Let's face it. Chinese labs made some of the biggest advancements. AND training on Claude (or GPT) output IS unreasonably effective. The two sentences are true at the same time.
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This article shows that when Kimi3's chain of thought is prefilled to match Opus's, the rest of the chain of thoughts Kimi3 outputs very closely aligns with Opus's. That seems strong evidence that Kimi3 is partly a distillation of Opus. And Kimi3 is not a small model. No doubt a lot of hard work went into Kimi, but seems clear that distillation was used effectively as well.

(though maybe there's another interpretation of the thought alignment?)

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Didn’t Kimi3 release a week before opus 5?
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They compare it to Opus 4.8 in the article, which has been available for a few months now.
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It's like sideloading. It's very hard to fight against the marketing budget of big tech
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> If they charge by the token, all your tokens are belong to you

I’m not sure this argument is correct. You can sign whatever contract you like with the model provider, right? Including “you are entitled to the end product but not the intermediate scratch work”?

Coming from a place of genuine curiosity: is there some precedent or statute that would invalidate that contract? I don’t see why the reasoning tokens belong to you.

For example, I pay lawyers by the hour but don’t necessarily own their meeting minutes, recorded discussions, research notes, etc.

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Sure, but the current one is charged per token in & token out. Not per completion / task / hour / whatever. You can't charge per token and then say "you stole that token". Again, they can unilaterally decide not to sell you tokens anymore, at any time, for any (legal) reason. But as it stands right now, it can't be stealing.
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Read the TOS. It can absolutely be stealing.

Are you a lawyer?

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Breaking a platform's ToS is a civil contract violation, not a criminal offence. Stealing is. Potato, avocado.
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I hesitate to nitpick with regard to something legal, given your username, but what makes this different from hiring a consultant with the agreement that their final output belongs to you, but you don't get access to their internal processes, tooling, notes, etc? Or a photographer where you get final edited prints, but you don't get the raw photos?
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Your examples are cases in which you know what the bill is going to be before placing your order. With LLMs, you're paying per output token, not per request, yet you don't get all the tokens.
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When you hire lawyers or consultants you usually don’t know how many hours they’ll bill you. It will depend on developments in the case that you cannot in general predict. For example if the other side files a motion and your lawyer has to argue against it, they’ll bill you for it.

Sure you can set spending limits, just like you can make an account and give it a limited amount of credits.

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Or a huge software company where you only get the end operating system, but none of its source code.

Buy the Neiman Marcus cookies and feel entitled to the recipe?

Lots of secret sauce in the world.

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>But the real question is: Is it okay to steal from a thief's hoard?

How does this relate to your previous paragraphs? LLM outputs are not copyrightable and you didn't break into Anthropic servers to steal the files from there. So how exactly is it theft? If I send an "encrypted" files to thousands of peoples and some manage to figure out how to read it I can't really accuse them of that or can I?

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Not necessarily. There's a million ways to jailbreak any current model to show the trace and bypass all guardrails, or hijack and modify it. It's just one of them.
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The reasoning blocks are not stolen/mined from the internet at large directly. They’re the result of a lot of research, time, money, and expertise into creating a reasoning model. To me the answer is quite clearly no, especially when the encrypted blocks demonstrate they want to protect it.
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Stuff available on the internet is also the result of a lot of research, time, money, and expertise. And AI companies taught us that it’s OK to yoink whatever is not bolted to the ground, even when it is illegal to do so.
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That's a moral stance one can take (regardless of the severe cognitive dissonance embedded in it). But what does that have to do with theft? LLM providers don't own the copyrights to the outputs of their models (at least not yet).
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No. There are dozens of companies that resell tokens at a discount to collect and resell session data to various Chinese labs.
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So you say, they at least create economic value through obscurity of something which should be accessible?
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if you make reasoning soup of my data withou my consent it still is my data and i did not ask for your reasoning soup
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Most post-training tasks are based on real open source projects. A lot of time on real issues posted on issue trackers.

Besides that, the capabilities of a model are heavily dependent on the unsupervised learning phase, that gobbles all kind of other people's IP without giving a fuck. All the underpaid work behind the masses of third world programmers creating those post-training datasets would be completely uselless without it.

Also, it is kind of funny that labs resort to the "Research, time, money and expertise" argumet, when it is basically the same argument from publishers and other IP creator that the labs spent millions of dollars of lawyering money to resist. Besides, US law rejects in: Effort and cost by themselves not necessarely generate protectable interests.

About encryption, I think we're all contaminated by the bad ideology behind DMCA. While encryption established the intent, it doesn't follow that they have a legal claim of exclusivity just because of it.

Technically, you're overstating the value of so called "reasoning traces". You can't infer the verifier design, the reward shaping,or the data pipeline from them. Also, what you can extract are not the traces themselves, but the written summary of it, and you can't even guarantee that this summary reflects the exactly reasoning trace, models have show to have lied about it. Besides, distillation works when the student model already has strong priors, you can't turn a weak model in a SOTA with it. Don't believe Amodei's outrageous lies about it, he is just trying to exercise some regulatory capture.

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Are you a judge or a lawyer? If not, then you don’t know one way or another.
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And what is your argument?
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