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> Beats Opus 4.7 Max

I'm a huge open model fan, and have used them since forever, even have daily drivers for on-prem dev, but no. They do not beat opus on real-world usage.

Qwen models are impressively good for what they are, are "good enough" for plenty tasks, can be ran locally on decently priced hardware, and so on. They certainly have their uses, and the field in general has advanced faster than my early expectations. But to compare a 27B model to SotA behemoths from a few months ago is doing everyone a disservice, especially people who pick it up, try to use them just like API models, and leave disappointed and confused. Number goes up on a benchmark isn't it.

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> They do not beat opus on real-world usage

We have an internal eval that measures performance on tasks for a handful of embedded systems repos for our mmWave radios (mostly Rust, some C for microcontroller stuff). Qwen3.6-27B scores only 4% lower for pass@1, n=250 compared to Opus-4.8.

For the labeled dataset, the average PR size they're being measured against is around 1.5k SLOC.

This is very much "real-world usage" for us. The sort of change sets that come in daily/weekly and are solving non-trivial issues in the respective codebases.

As is usually the case, the most broad claims from both the labs and from the consequent pushback are talking past each other.

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Let us know when you have Qwen vs Qwen comparison stats. As long as there's not a regression, that'd be awesome.
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4% is within the margin of error anyways for pass@1, so I think pass@k > 1 is gonna be the better indicator of any movement (still need to calibrate the optimal k to re-test). 10 seems too tolerant even though that tends to be the next tranche I reach for.
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Depends on where you sit on the binomial curve. At p=0.04 for n=250 4% points would not be within margin of error.
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>> We have an internal eval that measures performance on tasks for a handful of embedded systems repos for our mmWave radios

Okay but the parent said real-world usage, presumably meaning coding tasks.

We have a whole bunch of complex evals that Haiku 4.5 passes. That doesn't mean it is a good model for coding.

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They literally stated in their first sentence that it was coding tasks.
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Yes, these are coding tasks in the embedded systems domain (I mentioned Rust and C).
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How much does it score though? 0% would be 4% less if Opus was at 4%. Unless you mean relative fraction not percentage points - but people usually mean percentage points in such situations.
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0% is not 4% less than 4%, that would be 3.84%.

0% is 4 percentage points (pp) less than 4%.

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> ...but no. They do not beat opus on real-world usage.

I agree, but then we just need meaningful benchmarks that clearly show that! Otherwise it's hand waving about something that should be put on paper in quantifiable terms.

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If you are working in a company and using language models, it is a very good idea to hold a bunch of evals you can trust and use to validate new models. Calibrate every once in a while with prod data. We have our own and the only numbers on quality and cost I trust come from this setup.
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A wise man once said, "not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts".
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In the end, the only benchmark that matters is your own.
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Only useful benchmarks are those you (in particular) don't have access to.
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The only useful benchmarks are those you've created for your specific workflow. Only then can you assess whether a given model is better or worse for what you are using it for.

There are tools like promptfoo designed for this.

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> but then we just need meaningful benchmarks that clearly show that!

That's the rub. AI benchmarks are IMO, by and large totally unreliable. We think of them as similar to traditional benchmarks of deterministic processes where the number of variables is low. But they're anything but that. Non-deterministic processes with an astounding number of variables and fuzzy acceptance criteria.

It leads to results like these, where if you take it at face value, the only conclusion you can draw is "wow Anthropic must be stupid if Opus takes 1T parameters to do what Qwen can do in 27B."

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How can you say this when you haven't even tried it yet? Is it just hypothetical vibes?
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Yep. These small models are actually worse than GPT 3.5 at some tasks (like recalling facts). You can definitely make models smarter at specific tasks (like tool calling, coding) but you can't compress the entire human knowledge into a 30GB file. It's just not enough bits.
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But why would you use a model to store factual knowledge, that is stupid. We want intelligence, not a database.
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Models cant make any decisions if they have 0 idea that the feature exist in this language or in some general fact.

For example you would tell a model hey, become an expert in this language for me, search it online, it would still need to learn it and download the data to it's context and then increasing the memory usage, there's no way around it.

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that is why we enable web search for the agent. the memory can come from the internet.

deepseek-v4-flash needs web search to return true facts.

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There is 0 shot you can make that claim about this model you have not used or downloaded yet
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"Benchmark is stupid" and "model beats model on benchmark" are two different things, though. The second one is objectively true regardless of your views on the first one, right? To expect everyone to share your opinion that benchmarks are stupid is pretty weird, and just saying "no" to an objective truth is the definition of delusion.
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If a benchmark is a measure of nothing useful, then model beats model is an objectively useless fact
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Oh, goody goody goody! Can't wait for a Q4M with *MTP* support. Does anyone know if there are plans for it?

I am currently using Qwen 3.6 on RTX 3090 and I have to admit that without MTP it would be too slow to be acceptable for me (30-35 tok/sec without MTP, 60-70 with MTP). Without MTP I would just use OpenRouter and rather pay for speed despite having a capable local setup.

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It comes with MTP already, they just don't mention it in the filename as it's now the default.
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Oh, thank you for telling me this. Trying it out now.
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Is there any advantage to using the model from Unsloth compared with https://huggingface.co/Qwen/Qwen3.8-27B-FP8 ?
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Depends on what software/hardware you'll run it. GGUFs from Unsloth can run on pretty much every single potato; full weights need beefy gpus
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We also made NVFP4 ones if that helps! https://huggingface.co/unsloth/Qwen3.8-27B-NVFP4
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This is the version we'll be testing on our rtx 6000 today! Thank you
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Unsloth one is gguf for llama.cpp (and some other on-device engines).

So advantage is not having to produce your own quantisation / gguf from .safetensors you've linked.

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Unsloth usually also fixes the models when they bork something, which always happens. For Gemma for example the tool calling wasn't working for the longest time.
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That wasn't our problem right? Gemma officially updated tool calling which we adopted
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Run the unsloth if you are using llama.cpp (GGUF)

Run the one you linked if you are running vllm (safetensors)

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if you have the VRAM, use offical release. quantized model lose focus after long context and can do damages or thinking loop
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Considering the clusterfuck that is opus 5 or even fable, if Qwen 27B is trully better than Opus 4.7 Max, I will rejoice.
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If it's as good as Sonnet 4.6 for most things I'd be happy.
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Yeah Opus 5 is almost unusable as a daily driver without making me go insane from excessive claude babble.
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That kind of result makes me suspicious of benchmaxxing. Qwen 27B is 100x smaller than Opus 4.7. Is it really 100x more parameter-efficient? Two orders of magnitude is hard to believe. I don't have the hardware to run a 27B, but I'm curious what real world use is like. Maybe I'll have to buy some usage on a cloud provider to run my own tests, but this seems fishy to me.
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Qwen small models are heavily coding focused, whereas Opus is everything to everybody (even if code is their bread and butter). The downside is they'll frequently hallucinate world knowledge so they need to be RL'd to double check their knowledge against sources and verify facts/library names/etc.
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It's very agentic coding focused; and I'd say a good executor but certainly not Opus in scale; overall knowledge; long-horizon work and recovery; etc.

e.g. If you try to chat to it about something philosophical for example, or maybe a debate / creative writing, then you'll very quickly see how it is still a much smaller model at the end of the day.

Still, it's such a relatively accessible model to run, and I find a big part of leveraging smaller models is to give it well-scoped tasks; not too high level or ambitious ones. Very impressive for its size and the ability to run locally :)

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I wish each quant was benchmarked on the same tests as the original network so we could compare their performance
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Unsloth publishes KL divergence numbers which measures how much the quantised probability distribution changes vs unquantised: https://unsloth.ai/docs/models/qwen3.8#quantization-analysis

It's a bit bare at the moment, I assume they are going to add further detail later (eg comparison to other quants), similar to their other releases.

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The talk around KL divergence is oversold. People talk about it as if it’s not a benchmark, but at its core it is in the same neighborhood! You get a different KL divergence number on different “calibration datasets”, so in other words it’s data-dependent. It is NOT a universal guarantee about the fundamental divergence of a model.
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KL divergence is nothing close to a replacement for benchmarks. As flawed as benchmarks are, KL divergence is a barely useful signal. The fact that Unsloth only just started publishing KL divergences shows how unserious the quantization space is.
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Actually we do publish non KLD benchmarks - top-1% is better - for NVFP4 for eg we did MMLU Pro, GPQA, AIME 2025: https://unsloth.ai/docs/models/qwen3.6#nvfp4-benchmarks

Sometimes they're just slow and expensive, so we we KLD as a proxy measure and it's very high correlation (95%+)

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You're very right about KL divergence. I spent a couple days playing with the Gemma 4 models. That's 10 separate models (varying weights, MoE, QAT or not, etc...) with identical tokenizers. I treated 31B at BF16 as the gold standard, feeding Wikipedia snippets, and anthropomorphizing a bit:

Gemma 4 31B: "Um, if I really said all of that, I guess I'd say this next"

Gemma 4 26B: "Dude, I would've said completely different stuff" (large divergence)

Gemma 4 12B: "Umm, there's zero chance I would've said some of this" (INFINITE divergence)

Gemma 4 E4B and E2B: "Derp derp, I'm happy to say almost anything" (lowest divergence)

For models which are chat trained, they simply would not recite Wikipedia, so the divergence is almost meaningless. I thought about capturing a realistic coding session and trying to use that as the corpus, but you need to preserve the turn-based tokens and such, so I moved on to other things.

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> The fact that Unsloth only just started publishing KL divergences shows how unserious the quantization space is.

Just wanted to say that this is a very important point that I totally agree with. People are obsessed with KL divergence, but it is yet to be demonstrated to be a descent proxy for agentic coding benchmarks.

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That's not a replacement for benchmarks
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When I tested various eval benchmarks on Qwen3.5/3.6 27B with Unsloth's quants, the scores usually dropped 0-5% between UD-Q6 and UD-Q3 depending on the eval.
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In the local LLM communities there is a lot of respect for the Qwen models, but everyone comes to acknowledge that they do a lot of benchmaxxing after using them. Even at full precision they're never as good as models with similar benchmarks.
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That's crazy, considering the massive size difference. But the small Qwen models are known for punching above their weight.
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Good morning Dario!
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