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The ideal number of jails and homeless people is zero.

Obviously you will not reach that literally. That's why it is an ideal number, not a real number. It is still a good and worthy goal.

Finnland for example has nearly eradicated homelessness. It is not literally zero but 0.08% which is pretty good.

You can also reduce the crime rate dramatically by better social security, education, easier access to mental health care and so many other things.

And don't say we can't afford these things. These measures pay dividends in building a better society for everyone. What we can't afford is having so many billionaires not paying their fair share.

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>Finnland for example has nearly eradicated homelessness. It is not literally zero but 0.08% which is pretty good.

If we had Finland's winters, I think we could eradicate homelessness by January.

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If this is an attempt at humor, it is in very bad taste.

And no, please educate yourself on what Finland did to eradicate homelessness. It has nothing to do climate but with the fact that Finland made it an explicit political goal to eradicate it i.e political will.

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Obviously the ideal number of jails is not zero, but why wouldn't the ideal number of homeless people be zero?
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I’m guessing there’s a bit of breathing room at the lower end of the system - there will be people who become drug addicts or have major mental health breaks and lose everything.

And ideally we have good safety nets that find these people and give them resources and treatment, but some people will refuse everything and end up in bad situations of homelessness due to their drug and/or mental health crises.

And even in a society that forces those people into attempted treatment programs, there will still be a bit of time in between their issues manifesting and them going into treatment/therapy/confinement.

To have “zero homeless” you’d need to preventatively intercept these people before they become homeless and force them into confinement in treatment facilities and mental hospitals essentially. And that’s a dangerous game because you’re essentially taking away someone’s freedom preemptively before they become homeless

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Has anyone studied why homeless people refuse help? It's usually because the "help" isn't help. E.g. "you can sleep here but only if you haven't used drugs in the last week, so we'll test your blood before we let you in"
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How are you supposed to help a person like that thought?

I understand that you cannot reason too well with an addict, so it might be surprising to some that somebody would refuse shelter if it meant being clean.

Still, what should be the approach then? Unconditional help?

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This is along the lines I mean. Or when shared households break up, and some stay, some leave, which one should you send to the asylum forever and why not both? Or to jail for the fights they both participated in? What of the deaths by a thousand cuts and no one at fault for the murder?

But the idea that jails are an unadulterated societal good, or that they are the natural only option to police, is a crazy religion. Why on earth do we have no timely resolutions but through handcuffs and jail? There is expediency, and then there is externalizing the whole of the troubles to the smallest number of people, who could never overturn a majority, even if they had the vote.

I suggest the ability to put certain people in a metal box, at least partially for losing their grasp of a better role in the world, is a big, boldface moral hazard, and self-perpetuating, but with leering cheerleaders.

Some people are wild and out of control sometimes. Treating them all as permanent bad apples is just as animalistic.

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Just make sure after each politician serves their term they get a year in prison.
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You could also have "zero homeless" if you had a certain amount of cheap housing that even drug addicts and mentally ill people could afford. Or where the cost of helping them is not too much.

Like some housing that was built to be closer to "indestructible" than "nice" and was small, like 200 - 300 sq ft.

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Some homeless people choose to not make use of such facilities, for example because they don’t want to get into fights with the other (ex-)homeless living there, or because of anxiety issues and the like.
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They choose not to use these facilities because they can’t do drugs there.
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Or the exact opposite of what you said.
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>if you had a certain amount of cheap housing that even drug addicts and mentally ill people could afford.

That was absolutely free, $0?

>Like some housing that was built to be closer to "indestructible" than "nice" and was small, like 200 - 300 sq ft.

We already have those housing units. They have concrete "beds", toilet-sink combos made out of stainless steel, and a thick steel door that can't be burned by arson. Nothing flammable is allowed within them (save the non-homeless person). The technology exists, and the homeless are actually welcome there. People get mad when they are homed thus, though.

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>That was absolutely free $0?

Mental illness, drug addiction and homelessness all exist in a range. There are many people who are homeless, mentally ill or addicted to drugs who still have some amount of income of one type or the other.

I would try to target rent under $1,000 per month for such housing

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If it’s not in the city centre it will remain empty and if it is it will already be full
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>I’m guessing there’s a bit of breathing room at the lower end of the system - there will be people who become drug addicts or have major mental health breaks and lose everything

So? Why can't a 21st century country provide them with some at-least pod-like homes, so they are not fucking homeless?

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Because having homeless people is a deliberate choice, a feature of said country. Same with "illegal immigrants".
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Homeless people are necessary so that poor workers can see what will happen to them if they stop working.
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Honestly this isn't the right conversation to be having at all.

In the United States, ~40% of the homeless are employed. A deeply non-trivial percent either are kids or have kids. Everyone should volunteer at a support center for homeless youth some time.

Sure, there may be some kind of Pareto principal in play for the hardest 20% of cases to crack. Who cares? Let's eliminate 80% of the existing problem and worry about the rest when we get there.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the median HN reader has very little appreciation of the human reality of homelessness in the United States, and primarily see it through the lens of people at the extreme, visible margins. I know I used to until I got involved.

edit: I mean all of this in a very boring, matter of fact way, not some kind of holier-than-thou virtue signaling way. The 80% problem of homelessness is a tractable economic problem. While it's true that the United States has an almost dizzying level of propaganda demonizing poor people, it's also true that real homelessness is hard to spot because people have a natural instinct to preserve their and their family's dignity. The first time I came to terms with this was coaching debate in highschool. I had a varsity debater who couldn't afford pants to meet the dress code. Incredibly bright, academically successful kid. His father was an unemployed teacher working menial jobs, his mother was taking care of three kids. They lived in a tent at campsites. I had absolutely no idea. We obviously bought him pants and paid all his travel/etc. fees (he'd been making excuses to not go to events requiring travel). That's a very boring, normal case.

That family should have had a free or nearly free housing option. They did not. They still wouldn't.

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And then there are people who aren't families, without the knack for conveying a moving story, or exceptionally good in every way but unfair circumstances.

Many of these people, and not just the really, really bad nuisance ones people use as excuses to superiority, are literally slaves, performing the scarecrow work of deterrence as living examples, for "society", for no pay.

I think this is an injustice, subverted by its own cruelty, and one of the more compelling arguments for UBI.

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That's the plain truth, and I think it's unfortunate that we need to use sympathetic examples as a bridge. I guess I've accepted the premise that the privileged gestalt is profoundly distorted and that "charismatic macrofauna" are a necessary ladder to be kicked away.

The example is true, but to your point, isn't representative... and that doesn't matter.

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Because there are places, where it's safe and reasonable to remain without a permanent home for an extended period of time. Warmer areas of Australia come to mind, or Dominic van Allen (https://www.theguardian.com/society/audio/2023/sep/20/from-t...) from the UK.

It's a very fine line, between authoritarianism and the freedom of someone (whatever their mental state/ability is) to chose to not have a permanent place to live, while going through a difficult or promising phase of life. See also "The Pursuit of Happyness"

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We know most of them aren't choosing it though. They're "choosing" it by a creative definition of the word.
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I knew someone who worked at some sort of homeless services clinic, and I asked how many people they were able to help get back on their feet in a sustainable way. The answer was 1; I don't know what the denominator was, but the takeaway is that most of the visibly homeless people you see are uncoachable and you really can't protect people from themselves. With a huge caveat that the visibly homeless is a subset of the homeless/impoverished population.
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The implication (given that the US is an outlier here) is that prevention is much better than cure here; that means reform of healthcare and social housing so people are less likely to wind up in that trap.
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Programs are watched carefully for embezzlement, not really accountable for positive outcomes.
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Depends on your definition, but not everyone is necessarily happy (or at least, happiest) living under a particular roof.
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Housing is a privilege, not a right, and not a requirement. Except, being a free country, in jail.
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I said it is - I'm not saying it should be.
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Then you should have said "housing is treated as a privilege" instead of "housing is a privilege".
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Maybe it should be!
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How old are those systems in their present configuration?
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In the real world the jails are for holding, the prisons are for convicted criminals and the homeless people (most of them anyway, because not everybody that is homeless is derelict, and the addicts) get whatever help they need. Because we actually can afford it.
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> Because we actually can afford it.

Can you, though? And for how long? With the current policymaking and demographic and economic trends?

There is an argument to be made that the European social experiment has largely been indirectly funded by the largesse of the American hard-and-soft power strategy. As we're moving away from that (for various reasons, most idiotic), there is a question as to how it will persist.

(This is not meant as trolling--there's a real existential question here. A starting point is an attack on that argument: what is the "natural" expenditure on defense versus what you can get away with America's force projection? How much social funding is derived from that delta, in the most generous sense? Maybe it's a red-herring.)

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>There is an argument to be made

If we are speaking about housing specifically, at my part of the swamp it's subsidises by more affluent people (they way our atheistic christian beliefs command) and the general idea predates the rise of America anyway. Dealing with homeless people and the like the European way is also /cheaper/ too, IRRC.

Not having crack junkies shit in my front and backyard and also not worrying about it is tax money well I believe.. It's up to the village council to decide to send coppers to beat them or medics to provide some free hits on a condition of having to take a shower.

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What is the ideal number of unhoused people? And how do you arrive at that number?
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Probably "fewer", and probably by providing step-up housing for more people to whom it is out of reach.
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I think the ideal number of _prisons_ (as distinct from jails / pretrial confinement) is zero.

This whole charade in the USA of dressing up slavery (without even a single day of interruption on January 31, 1865) as "correction" is absurd. It's obviously a way to continue an economy that relies on a supply of involuntary labor, and has nothing whatsoever to do with public safety.

There are plenty of ways to implement restorative justice which are superior to forcing convicts to make starbucks uniforms (start here if you've never delved into this, but there are great books on the topic which you can find from here: https://harvardpolitics.com/restorative-justice-abolition/).

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Some crimes are bad enough that the perpetrators don’t deserve second chances. I’m ok with punishment for its own sake in some cases even if it would be more “cost effective” or “productive” for society to rehabilitate.
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Sure, again bad apples, but one size fits sentences to the same institution? They are not all of the people ever arrested, or all of the time, or even most, and still the fundamentally medieval violence we orient by.
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That too. The check of "without due process" did not undo that rebranding or its many modern forms.
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I’d guess the downvotes are an aberration of today’s politics, because your account of the history is factually and legally valid. (keyword “restorative”)

To me, the idea that incarceration and police use of force is wrong because it is racist is backwards. It’s racist because it is wrong.

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Is aberration for the ground you claim? My understanding is that in the west up until recently prisons were uncommon due to cost. The courts either fined you or they killed you. You might’ve been part of a Work gang, but the goal was to kill you.
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I don't understand your question or your comments. I have not considered the relevance of execution to this discussion, but I do not see fines and imprisonment as the same categories of punishment/correction at all.
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