Shared libraries have always been broken in Linux. Unfortunately many things like GPU drivers, graphics libraries and NSS need shared libraries to dynamically load certain runtimes (because you don't want to load all possible GPU drivers in existence to your RAM). So an ecosystem has been developed on top of terrible ABI and architecture GNU/glibc provided.
I've become obsessed with getting rid of it, especially after I realized that contributing to GNU itself was a dead end. Freestanding Linux programming turned out to be much more fun anyway.
All libraries out there should adopt the SQLite design: programmers provide it with all the necessary functions. Instead of libraries hard depending on glibc, we get to inject the libc-ish subset it needs. Then we can use whatever we want under the hood. I'm working on porting SQLite to freestanding Linux system calls so it can run with zero dependencies. Wish I could say the same for software like mesa, I'd need a lot of help for this one...
Can't be done. The libc is legacy, it can't be changed without breaking everything. It's also mandatory on every operating system other than Linux.
A change in paradigm is necessary. Freestanding C, not hosted C. This completely gets rid of the libc and is a surprisingly clean language. Linux only, because it's the only kernel with a stable binary interface. Every other OS forces a C runtime.
I once worked on a liblinux project that embodied this... Stopped because Linux itself has a nolibc thing in the kernel tree and I didn't want to compete with it. Now I'm working on the Rust version.
> what is necessary for users of the C language to actually do stuff
Surprisingly little. I wrote an entire lisp interpreter in freestanding C with Linux system calls. It managed to survive for a rather long time without any memory allocation at all.
The system layer is refreshingly tiny. It consists of a memory allocator and extremely basic functions like memmove and strlen. I successfully got rid of total nonsense like thread local errno, locales, implicit buffering, cached global state, possibly more. All that stuff is gone! Exactly one global survived: the stack canary generated by GCC and clang. Every other symbol in the ELF is controlled by me.
Wasn't able to get rid of the NUL terminator. Linux itself needs it. To get rid of that little billion dollar mistake requires an entirely new kernel with zero UNIX/POSIX influence. I had to make my peace with that one. All my buffers maintain an extra NUL byte at the end.
Great choice for small programs, but what if I want hardware accelerated 3d?
With Linux system calls alone it should be possible to set up kernel mode setting without depending on any toolkit at all. This should be enough to get a framebuffer for software rendering.
For hardware acceleration though, one must give this graphics context to an OpenGL ES implementation. That's where it gets ugly. There is no way to divorce that from the libc short of literally rewriting it.
Maybe Vulkan will enable it? I can't say for sure at my current knowledge level.
https://vulkan.lunarg.com/doc/view/latest/mac/LoaderInterfac...
I'm sure those OSes make efforts to make said runtime binary compatible between executables.
That's when you run into the Darth Vader of binary interfaces.
> I have altered the ABI. Pray I do not alter it further. -- De Raadt
Windows explicitly does not want you to link the system libc. You are expected to bring your own, and doing so means your process has multiple libc's loaded into its address space.
And if you choose to build a binary that doesn't need a libc, you won't be bringing one.
This is categorically false; UCRT[1] is a thing. The 'U' stands for universal. Unlike Linux, Windows allows developers to choose their ABI boundary and also ship that boundary if they desire, or use the 'system' one and ask older platforms to install redistributables or Windows update packages. There's the old and new C runtimes in MSVCRT.DLL and UCRTBASE.DLL, the C++ runtime in VCRUNTIME140.DLL, Win32 in KERNEL32.DLL, USER32.DLL and more, and then the stable-ish kernel interfaces in NTDLL.DLL, in order of 'closeness to the kernel'.
And also, 'libc' is a UNIXism; on Windows the term is CRT, for 'C runtime'.
[1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/cpp/porting/upgrade-your-c...
Linux has a stable system call ABI. I can trash the entire user space and boot Linux with init=/my/program if I want.
It's not that Linux doesn't allow developers to choose, it's that Linux doesn't actually control the userspace ABIs. Userspace is whatever we want it to be, and people settled on "GNU/Linux".
Usually Windows developers will use Win32 directly, ZeroMemory() instead of memset(), and so on.
> At some point, the decision was made to just give up and declare it an operating system DLL, to be used only by operating system components.
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20140411-00/?p=12...
That only massively compounds the problem.
> And if you choose to build a binary that doesn't need a libc, you won't be bringing one.
NT system calls are not stable. You still need to link against ntdll.dll at the very least, like a forced Linux vDSO.
The Windows ecosystem, that manages to deliver built binaries easily & widely, regardless of whether the author has a 1 year old OS or a 15 year old OS, suggests that it's not as big a problem as you believe.
SQLite already does this with its VFS layer. You hand it the OS functions it needs instead of it grabbing them, etc.
You could look at going straight to syscalls, mesa would be a rewrite nightmare
I went zero-dependency on a production CMS. Rust, no framework, no external crates beyond argon2 for password hashing. Running live on client sites. The hard part wasn't building it, it was accepting that everything you reach for is pulling glibc or similar assumptions back in through the side door. SQLite's VFS model is the right pattern. More things should work that way.
That's currently the real core of the problem.
The loader (and libdl) need to be decoupled from the glibc itself under Linux.
Without that, any attempt to ship static binaries (or any binary with a different Libc) will be a source of perpetual pain.
nss plugins and its associated pain (sssd and avahi) are an other examples of that.
C++ abi should not be included in this. It is independent from the other pieces and historically a source of incompatibility on its own.
Saying "C/C++ abi" as if they are the same is looney tunes, the former is very simple and stable and the latter is very complex.
How libstdc++ initializes global variables absolutely depends on glibc and ld-linux.so. That is part of C++ ABI.
Somehow most of my portability issues seem to be caused by glibc, its symbol versioning and close ties to the dynamic loader. Minor versions aren't compatible, no two Linux distros ship the same version and you can't just provide your own without also patching in your own dynamic loader.
At least as far as the defaults on Linux go I consider C the root of all evil.
In which case as long as you're using the documented public API and compile your program with the oldest version of glibc you want to support (some Ubuntu from 4-5 years ago should cover pretty much every current desktop) you should be fine. And with something like Docker this is trivial to do.
Sure it is annoying that you cannot use your current distro (especially if you use some rolling distro) to make binaries for everyone, but it takes very little effort to work around that. The only issue i can think of is if you absolutely want to compile using the latest version of your compiler and you cannot build the compiler from source to work in the Docker (or whatever) contain to work against the older glibc.
In complex cases, it turns out that the old version of glibc also pulls in other libraries and the compiler, and you're stuck with a very ancient sysroot. You may often find that you can't compile new library versions in such a sysroot and link them statically.
So, it looks good on paper, but forget about the ravines.
C++ global/static variable initialization depends on the specific version of glibc (they don't usually break compat, but they can and they did in the past) which also provides ld-linux.so that loads those global variable placeholders in the correct manner such that glibc and libstdc++ can initialize them correctly.
This is just one example. Thread local variables and behavior of things like pthreads with signal, fork etc all depend on glibc.
And that's the correct approach and also one that many have taken. We just need someone willing to maintain that as an easy mode SDK for everyone.
Who said that? This approach has many problems that have already been discussed here, not to mention the fact that it leaves Alpine and Bionic-based systems out in the cold.
Let me remind you that Bionic is the most widespread libc in the Linux world, and Alpine is the most popular Docker layer.
The world doesn't end with glibc. And it doesn't begin with it.
Until you define a thread local variable (C11) or use atomics (also C11) or define a global with an initial value. Then it happily generates code that depends on "whatever my target glibc + ld-linux.so needs".
The ABI is strongly dependent on explicit libc implementation in current Linux systems. There is no libc independent ABI on Linux.
When you compile libc, you also get a binary loader ld-linux.so with it. They are not two independent components of a system.
Basically all .so files compiled with glibc require the ld-linux.so that's also generated by that glibc (or a later version, if they didn't break the binary compatibility).
There are a lot of stuff that's executed by ld-linux.so and glibc that are not explicitly documented but they are absolutely necessary for your program to start and correctly initialize things like global variables or signal handling or loading other dynamic libraries. Some of that functionality sits in ld-linux.so and some of that in glibc. They have circular dependencies to each other. glibc expects ld-linux.so to put things in certain order but ld-linux.so also must load glibc first to have access to certain APIs. They are not part of System V ABI. They are not documented.
Musl maybe can implement this but it is simply reverse engineering what glibc did and then playing a game of cat and mouse. There is no independent ABI standard.
Then, what is the exact reason a library compiled against glibc must be loaded by a specific ld-linux? I could see that this is true for C++ perhaps, or when you use very special features, but I do not see this for C.
I often compiled programs against one version of glibc and run it against a different version, so I know there is not a tight coupling. So please be specific in explaining in what scenarios this would break.
All solutions to this problem are hacky, complex and controversal and highly fragmented, where this should be BASIC functionality
Or do the MS thing, and ship multiple versions like msvcrt
Solo is basically pg83's answer to the architecture you just described. If there is no libc independent ABI, build your own loader and shim the boundary.
I can understand Linus's obsession with taste and the areas it was overlooked or traded.
Not really, though. glibc uses symbol versions that are forward but not backward compatible. If you got an error that said "this program was built for a newer version of <distro>" would you say the same thing?
Note this is the same (if not worse) on MacOS, and on windows you used to distribute the CRT with your application just to deal with the same problem.
Yes glibc has some backwards compat but you cannot load a binary compiled with a newer version of glibc using an older ld-linux.so. That's because the interdependency. Nor you can load binaries that depend on different libc.so files with glibc systems
I cannot comment on macOS, I have never used it. However this is not a problem with Windows. You can ship a newer CRT or you can install it as a system component using Microsoft's MSI. The dependency is one way on Windows. CRT purely depends on Win32. Moreover the loader is completely independent and DLLs are loaded into their own unique scoped namespace unlike Linux that loads them in global symbol namespace. That's why you can mix and match DLLs compiled for different CRT versions.
On Windows you don't need to ship a new binary loader. I can just ship Windows 10 UCRT DLL (which is the new libc of Windows) to Vista and my binaries will work. The binary loader isn't interlinked with the libc.
One of the ways Windows manages to support multiple libc's is by being careful not to mix allocators; if a system API you call allocates on your behalf, your libc can't free it, the system API will offer a function to free it.
Windows loader is certainly available to user programs though; LoadLibrary has been around longer than many developers.
As for older Windows systems not being able to load new DLLs, they can; the format hasn't changed in a very long time. I've had experience with installing some DLLs on Windows NT 3.51 and running a modern Firefox, which is about 20 years behind the times.
MS haven't made this work arbitrarily far back, I believe they deprecated targeting Windows XP in one of the more recent toolchains, but that was purely a "not worth supporting" situation.
EDIT: mixed up talking about older & newer
Additionally many other OSes have had both approaches since their early days, Xerox PARC ones.
For some strange reason they assume to know better than all those researchers.
What you can't do is build something statically with musl and then reliably dlopen shared libraries built with glibc.
If you break or remove a shared lib here, you may no longer be able to compile something from source. I had that happen in the past before I started to use more statically compiled programs (and busybox too).
Assuming everything works as-is via shared libraries at all times, makes little sense for ALL linux systems. For instance, some people upgrade glibc manually. Then you need a working base system to resume compilation. I do that for my customized gobolinux system, so I can use any program version as well as any glibc version (assuming I can still compile the program; many older programs no longer compile).