Nor even €50k/year.
Two things are true:
1) The coding part of my career is over. LLMs are capable of doing everything I've ever been paid to *write*.
2) My actual job also included non-coding work: Does this attempted solution even work at all? Is this solving the right problem? Even if it's a valid solution to the right problem, is it the best solution given the time constraints?
That last one, "given the time constraints", is a place where my experience is still useful. The AI is as lazy (or as optimised for fast wins) as the humans whose examples it was trained upon; but an LLM costs so little that the answer is always "do it right" rather than "do it fast". A lot of people don't know what "do it right" even looks like, having only ever known e.g. websites that take 5 seconds to load because of all the adverts and analytics, and never the world where machines with 1% of the CPU and no GPU at all could fit a fully playable first person shooter in the same memory footprint as that page.
At least, I hope this "is a place where my experience is still useful"; I may just be telling myself a nice story, same as all the other people through history who have found themselves obsoleted when the automation came for them.
Remember we used to spend enormous amount of time in school and in our spare time studying computer science? Algorithms, operating systems, compilers, and etc. All kinds of insights. All kinds of fun. All kinds of hard engineering. Yet, how much time do we really need to spend in our day-to-day work implementing or using the algorithms and etc that we have learned?
Engineers have done amazing work of abstracting away the hard algorithms and data structures. In the meantime, there has been little progress or few new fields in the past 10 years or so in business that ask for implementation of new algorithms. In contrast, getting LLM to work is a new field, so it requires tons of new implementations: KV caches, speculative decoding, all kinds of variants of attention like FlashAttention, all kinds of parallel processing techniques, RL pipelines, post-training pipelines, and etc. It's just that the field is so concentrated that only luck few get to work on them.
So, maybe it's not LLM per se that removes the need of writing code. It is the maturity of the software engineering that has done so. It's just that LLM fills the last gap: making knowledge transfer so much faster and cheaper - if all that's left for most of us is slicing and dicing of what has been already been implemented, then LLM can reliably take over.
With AI, people can build and collaborate on applications much more complex with much less technical knowledge. It might be ugly and crappy but I bet they’ll be mostly autonomous and not need to work through their IT team, or go through the hell of PM and requirements. If I know my requirements, I don’t need you. Hell, I can just start building and add requirements as I come across them. It’s not a major risk to the project like it used to be.
It will, and is, going much faster than the spreadsheet did.
Transit routing is still moving fast in this area. We're still figuring out the best ways to return thousands-by-thousands transit time matrices with query-time truck dimensions and traffic updates. It can't be the only field!
Because great insight and expertise stems from foundational knowledge.
I am a huge hockey fan. In the NHL, the players do not stop practicing the fundamentals once they make it to the NHL. They practice the fundamentals even more. Many practice the same drills as youth leagues -- stick handling, passing back and forth, shooting, edgework, shooting, rebound control, etc..
The best of the NHL might not hit the hardest, have the most accurate shot, or skate the fastest. What separates them from the rest of the lot is that they are fundamentally better than everyone else.
But an LLM just happily chugs along and does it, no one feels the friction, which means you never stop up to think if you're solving the right problem, or in the right way. I'm already seeing this bite us in the ass, as you get hacks upon hacks.
- Functionality which exceed the technical ability or knowledge of the developer which built it; and
- Functionality which would require an excessive number of changes that time/cost became a constraint (likely because it wasn't an incremental change but a significant rework, or just a bad fit with the existing product).
Sometimes I had the displeasure of joining a company where you could see developers hit these blockers and tried to fight through them (likely under pressure from management) rather than avoid them. And in the process they created a mess of buggy, half-functional spaghetti code which someone else later had to resolve.
Today however, people can use agents to smash through these blockers and ship an incomprehensible amount of crap. And what's worse is they're celebrated by management who don't know any better and see this all as a productivity win with no downside.
I suppose there are two ways to look at this – some would argue that engineers don't need to understand what they're building in detail anymore so non of this matters. Instead they can always use agents to explain what's going on and prompt them to fix any issues that come up.
Then there's another camp which might argue that agents will fundamentally have all the same limitations as humans, and that at some point a codebase will grow too complex that it exceeds even the limits of an agent's knowledge retention or intelligence. Or a codebase may just grow so large that it costs 1 million tokens to make even a simple change.
Unless agents start saying, "there's no way I'm shipping that" like humans used to I don't really see how we avoid the latter scenario... Complexity simply must have limits even if agents allow the bounds of those limits to grow.
At some point models will have to take control or we risk hitting these limits in irrecoverable ways since complexity far exceed that of what a human can reason about well.
If this wasn't true then "build me all the software" would be a reasonable prompt. Because why wouldn't we just get an agent to build everything we could ever possibly need? It's obvious that in the limit there will be limits in knowledge, intelligence and cost.
Whether it's humans or agents, someone needs to manage complexity. That is the most important thing a good SWE used to do. It's why technology selection mattered, it's why good architecture mattered, it's why clean code mattered.
One theory I have floating around in my head is that if a whole code base was microservices and micro front ends that were all less than 5,000 loc then you could fit the whole thing into a 100k token AI context window when working on it. And being few lines of code would force them to be somewhat simple
Current project has over 60,000 LOC, I find using an antagonistic agent code and architecture reviews are really handy for keeping things grounded.
This is not non-coding work. This is coding.
My claim is just that LLMs are basically fine now with the "coding" part. Not so much with development, definitely not with engineering.
I'm trying to write a novel, have been for a while now; one thing I hear from professional writers is that one should only do this if you are prepared to re-read whole thing six times before you even send it to the editor, and when you do send it to the editor, you and they will likely spend several months repeatedly re-reading the whole thing as you respond to a long list of changes they give you.
That is certainly not true. LLMs can't write code worth a damn still, and you have to babysit them to make sure they aren't doing stupid stuff. A human is still by far the best choice for doing programming, and when trend-chasing companies realize the damage they've done to their businesses they will stop pushing LLMs so hard.
I think it depends on the - ahem - context. In my experience they usually can, sometimes they can't.
But generally their sense of software architecture remains abysmal, so even if their writing is ok, you need to have architectural authority the very least to guide them.
took complex pub/sub event architectures down to the events postgres can do on its own, and a system architecture that works with that payload. am aware of the limits with this approach and stress potential on db
It's a similar level of excitement as when we started doing devops stuff before devops even was a thing (which has been one of our main things for a very long time now).
I was just doing that yesterday designing a game demo lol
Often they can't figure out how to test the thing, so "does this attempted solution even work at all?" is its guess from reading the source code, and sometimes I've even caught them writing "tests" which are a regex on the source code, not functionality.
They know almost nothing about "is this solving the right problem?", they're trained to assume the user is right, not to frame-challenge.
My general experience both in game and non-game projects is that it will be lazy by default rather than solving things correctly. Sometimes I spot this from their responses, other times I only notice with manual testing.
The point is that AI is aware of constraints and can manage a round it. You've got to keep in mind the size of a typical software project and plan. Most people aren't writing a kernel. They're writing some backend tool and need a project that fits into a couple of quarters with a handful of people at most involved.
Only if you instruct it with constraints. Otherwise, it's happy to implement whatever workaround it needs. But it still takes a dev to know what those constraints are and why they're needed.
Human test passed. AIs make giant flashy mistakes. They don't fuck up basic grammar.
write a comment about how to use ChatGPT to write a game like you're a barely literate reddit user, short answer, maximum incoherency
Not perfect, gptzero.me still knew it was AI generated (tayo42 is human by the same measure), but if for some reason someone was using an LLM prompted with that pattern, I suspect it would fool me in a Turing test unless I found the keyword to force the agent to change the role it was playing.
Conveying the errors typical in a Raise The Colours group on Facebook, that's the hard stuff.
It doesn’t work for the vast majority of tickets he attempts because he doesn’t have the necessary understanding to even start thinking about if the solution that the autocomplete generates is even remotely workable. And that’s with fancy dev loops and whatnot.
The spacer between the keyboard and the chair still matters in my experience.
I have a hard enough time explaining why “yet another bespoke application on some unmanaged azure resources” is a bad idea when they have more reasonable alternatives at hand.
Now these goofs can (very nearly) press a button and do it anyway, with no comprehension of the consequences. It’s high fives and pats on the back, until I’m cleaning up the mess.
Knowing what not to do has always been important, but it is perhaps more important than ever.
I have a design principles + tech preferences doc I force llms "lint" their approach against. It's not perfect but it helps. I call it a bias field, pushes them toward hopefully the happy and harmonious (with the rest of the system) paths. Obviously this is only partial and imperfect enforcement, but if it's applied to everything consistently it naturally encodes some self-consistency and harmony.
I’ve done the same but it’s a moving target as models advance and I find half of my points are ignored until I’m prompting “No wtf why are you still trying to symlink the global Python executable just use the virtual environment that’s already activated”.
Anyway, companies are pouring billions into improving AI tooling user experience so most of what I do manually I just anticipate to be a waste of time. There’s no way my hobby fiddling will outpace whatever gets released in the next couple months.
In the meantime, real linting does work pretty well, if you can write a detector for whatever antipattern you find LLMs fall into (like multiline comments).
Although, given opus 4.8->5.0 experience within claude code, I don't know if I'd agree they necessarily improve things with time. But that's just my experience. I should probably read their release notes, maybe just a tweak to my claude.md would help
I get patches into the biggest AI projects all the time to make inference faster on my 3090 and all you have to do is read the contribution docs and open a small PR.
It’s not a cabal of super geniuses. We are literally in the Wright Brothers era of AI.
You can trivially outpace what big companies are doing it’s insane, why do you think so many innovations are coming out of scrappy Chinese labs? They are willing to engage instead of being defeatist about it.
Not my core competence and I’m not interested in making it a core competence while the field is still rapidly changing. I find harness engineering interesting, but not lucrative enough to push one of the many very important other things on my plate to the backburner.
I don’t think Python language developers are super geniuses either, and I’ve never submitted code for consideration.
Remove the dev from the equation. Suppose you need to produce circumstances for the slop machine to succeed on its own (imagine a loop).
What is missing? A good enough description of the current behavior, desired changes and how it should work? Understanding of the business domain or the system in question, its architectural choices? Enough guardrails and linters and tests to ensure that the solution will indeed be testable and work end to end? Cause a lot of the things that will help human devs will also help LLMs make their output more workable - for example ADRs in the repo and custom in-house tools to ensure they follow architectural conventions and practices (or just something like ArchUnit). Realistically, how close to a finished implementation must you get and how far backwards from that can you go before its output degrades too much?
I tried figuring that out myself on a personal project where I mostly want what I want in GitHub issues and then feed them to Kepler, which spawns OpenCode in worktrees and also gives me a UI to follow the execution. Most models, even SOTA, occasionally implement things wrong, but it's suprising how far you can take things when you've spent a dozen hours planning out what you want the end result to be vs not to be (talking about the goals for an entire system, maybe an hour of planning for a more bounded type of task).
Or, slightly changing this. The source text needs to speak the correct vocabulary and language to produce a good completion. See the chat where Terry Tao is doing maths with an LLM. There’s _no way in hell_ I could get to his output because I just have no idea, and can’t speak the language.
Same with any field.
The edge of correct/better when facing ambiguity is very fuzzy, all models from the past 6 month or so have similar random ways of spinning between too-literal avenues and oddly misplaced misled fixations. Taking the right initiatives in face of uncertainty is definitely AGI, and its not there, and perceptrons + attention layers just ain't got what it takes no matter how hard you push.
Boris: "I haven’t written a line of code by hand in, I think, eight months now… Claude Code, 100% written by Claude Code".
Boris: "There’s no manually written code anywhere at the company… All of the SQL is written by models. Everything is just built by the models... Claude instances communicate with each other (e.g., over Slack) in autonomous loops"
This does not sound like they review the code either. So, either the frontier labs like Anthropic have figured out something that very few companies could replicate, or they are being incredibly deceptive. I don't know which is true.
1. Yes, we know, and can tell.
2. No, they haven't figured out anything. Just vibe coding it with their bleeding dege models.
I'm sure you were saying "bleeding edge" but my first impression was to translate dege to mean degen/degenerate which made this so much more fun to read.
The kinds of business software I work on don't have those characteristics. If I needed something like a utils library, I think I could easily have Claude write the whole thing and not read the code.
Why would programming be any different?
That doesnt clearly apply here
When you factor in overhead and benefits, many companies were regularly paying that much for someone (many someones) to "read this Jira ticket and implement the feature".
We are currently in the "centaur" phase where a human-AI combination produces the best output, but I think some people are betting on the fact that the AI only product will eventually outperform the centaur. And with the cost of tokens falling thanks to fierce competition from the Chinese open weight models, it's definitely possible that those that bet on AI early will reap payoffs in lower expenditures for more output.
Honestly not sure which side I land on that bet but I definitely can't rule it out.
This is not a silly question, because it's kind of silly:
Has an AI ever actually gone through all of the steps necessary to become a chess master? Go to competitions, raise in the ranks, take a plane to the masters, organize support and all the real life details necessary? Playing chess is just the small formal part here, and all of the obvious things humans obviously do, well...
Chess is a perfect information game with objective, easily measurable outcomes.
Show me a software business that looks like that and I'll agree with your hypothesis.
Otherwise I don't believe your metaphor proves much of anything.
I disagree, currently a human guiding an AI agent is far better (more productive for less money) than an AI agent with very loose non-technical guidance and The Ralph Wiggum Loop.
I don't know how much longer humans have, but I don't think they can be cut out of the loop entirely just yet.
The word "engineering" means doing things using a repeatable process to get predictable results. If you can get predictable results (e.g. guaranteeing the absence of data integrity issues, security issues, anything that will cause downtime, etc.) without looking at the code, you're still doing the work of engineering.
Your job as an engineer is to choose high-value problems to work on, solve them in the correct way, and guarantee that the functional and non-functional requirements are met. If you no longer need to read the code to guarantee that it has the right set of ilities, then I'm not sure that's obviously a bad thing, as long as the ilities you're enforcing result in a codebase that is sustainably secure and maintainable over the long term.
Perfect example of begging the question.
Vibe coding works great as long as vibe coding works great.
Personally, I'd love to see how you enforce security and long-term maintainability without looking at the code cuz we need to add that to our build pipelines ASAP.
1. Execution of engineering task - Companies happen to focus on this mostly and this is the metric to measure easily. Using LLM tools gives a impression of improvement on this area which is what everyone is chasing
2. Growth of the Engineer - This is the one which was always a side product of company culture, individuals interest, work being done, time being spent to understand, learn from failures. A job being executed perfectly for the first time itself does not gives the opportunity for learning, no memories/experiences are built up mind of the person executing the job after a while.
The second part is the one which is under appreciated in current scheme of things since it was a by product. There is a concept of muscle memory which pretty much applies to everything.
The nincompoops at the top think that if mountains of code can appear by snapping your fingers, they will be less of a problem.
If the mountain doesn't work, no problem; since it was so cheap to produce, just scrap it and snap you fingers again. The next one will be better.
Comparatively evaluating 2, 3, ... mountains of code is harder than trying to understand one.
A bad or below average dev with AI will run your product and company into the ground in a matter of weeks.
Good: you can refactor your codebase at will, throw out legacy cruft by the megabyte, improve build/CI time, and simplify ruthlessly. Not to mention kick out new features in simple and consistent ways that align with what a user actually wants.
Or you could add megabytes of vibe coded crap, solutions that add a ton of mass but don't actually solve the problem at hand (seriously!), implement abstractions that are logically inconsistent with the rest of the system, etc.
Both of these are happening right now, and I think the latter is happening at a rate far higher than the former. But our fundamental dynamics are still at play - the ball of mud is still a ball of mud, even if AI lets you make it 100x bigger. The problem just gets more entrenched.
Eventually AI will learn how to simplify code, understand coupling, etc - and hopefully it will just iron out problems as it goes. I think we're a long way away from that. But this is uncharted territory, and I don't think anyone really knows. I certainly don't hear anyone focusing on that as a target of optimization however.
My hope is that we'll see a number of companies collapse as they scale - with basically no hope of rescue, and perhaps we can re-learn these lessons yet again. It kind of feels like GitHub might be the first example of this.
If you worked in SV like I did from 2010-2020 you know that the exact opposite of that will happen. I saw hundreds of companies successfully scale out of their garbage stack such as Facebook and PHP.
The only thing that matters is the problem you’re solving and the quality of the code is irrelevant.
I had a recent experience with this. Although it was months and not weeks and there were other factors into play such as the market etc but the last company i was in had a poor engineering culture with inexperienced engineers equipped with AI output some of the lowest quality features for both customer-facing products and internal dev tools. A lot of customers churned, and im sure quality us part of the reason.
That led to a reduction in knowledge of assembly in the average programmer but the people who specialize in it haven't gotten any worse at it.
The result was a generation of programmers who make useful software while very few of them understand the machine they program. You could easily make either a positive or negative value judgement about that result.
Yes, it's true... but who cares? We lost that skill because we don't need it anymore.
English is becoming a very popular programming language.
My argument here is that what is worth $200k+ is the ability to distinguish the changes that must get thorough, critical review from those that need only a couple of specific things verified and those that require no manual review at all.
Our jobs have never been to write code. We’ve been saying for decades that LoC isn’t a rational way to measure engineering output, and now we have our chance to structurally change that system before processes re-solidify. In fact, I think the flexibility to adopt new systems and the experience and foresight to choose a path that is better than the status quo without throwing out everything we’ve learned is going to be what sets companies apart and makes individual careers over the next few years.
> we have leadership air dropping AI generated manifestos on the product owners and product owners having to use AI to transmute all that shit into 1,500 word Jira tickets that are 10% necessary feature work and 90% LLM boilerplate.
There’s an important criticism here IMO - the relationship between “business” and “engineering” is changing drastically. It’s going to be a challenge to set the expectation that just because Marketing was able to vibe-code a prototype in a day, actual implementation may well take weeks or months. Engineering should be considering things like security, scalability, and systems integration that aren’t a concern for Marketing - that’s why we’re being paid!
> So now you have software engineers whose job has changed radically to the point that the hardest part about being a software engineer is just filtering through AI generated artifacts from all directions just to try to get a feature out the door.
I think it’s an extremely heterogenous landscape right now. Where I work I’m struggling mostly with organization - keeping the (literal) dozens of inbound features that come in every day straight long enough to hook up an agent harness, review, validate, and deploy. At other companies the issues seem to revolve around their Agile-based processes. Or maybe it’s non-technical vibe-coders and their expectations. Or maybe it’s executive leadership flirting with AI psychosis.
Everything is in flux. It’s stressful and exciting, and I’m thankful to be around for it, even if I am in my 40s at this point and looking at the core skills I’ve built rapidly become worth exponentially less. It’s a huge opportunity for growth.
The problems:
1. The market is/has been saturated with engineers/developers earning well into the six-figures who are basically decent at writing code but not so good at anything else. So sorting out who is really worth these salaries is not going to be easy and the people who decide often lack the knowledge and skills to determine it.
2. You need to successfully make this argument to people who control budgets and more and more of them just aren't going to buy it.
And no, telling Claude to implement a Jira ticket is not worth $200K/year. Checking if it has not done something stupid and correcting it when it's trying to - is.