undefined

points

[-]

If you think of LLMs as programs. The weights and inference code are very much a binary.

While the training code and data are the true source. Since if you want to robustly modify the LLM that's actually what you need.

But since "compilation" (training) is extremely compute intensive this isn't something accessible to anyone without an entire datacenter.

Anyway semantics aside having the binary is still infinitely better than dealing with an api as far as privacy and control go.

by adastra2248 minutes ago|

parent|

[-]

That’s not how it works though. Two training runs on the same data don’t produce the same weights. And if you want to modify the AI, you do so by fine tuning the weights not rerunning training. In every respect that matters, the weights are both the binary and the source code together.

by stavros12 minutes ago|

parent|

[-]

If I want to remove censorship from your open-weights model, how do I do that?

by Vetch48 minutes ago|

parent|

prev|

[-]

The weights + the architecture are already 100% of the code, the transformer is just a mathematical expression + helper programs whose sources are provided. The transformer itself is not even a stateful program, so a it is no more a binary than Piet or Tromp's BLC are. It's merely incomprehensible. Training isn't compilation either, since training a model is closer to program induction and the data are samples defining the solution space.

by kzrdude3 hours ago|

parent|

prev|

[-]

I agree. But models in difference to compiled binaries, are useful as just weights and can be further refined and post-trained, at least.

I don't know LLM theory well enough to say if there's some secret sauce they can hold back that makes training ineffective. Less effective I'm sure, we don't have access to their smart training schemes, but post-training should always be possible IIUC.

by MeetingsBrowser1 hours ago|

parent|

[-]

At the risk of taking the analogy too far, I would treat refining like modifying a dynamic library. You can technically modify behavior, but only in a very coarse way.

post-training is like writing a wrapper around the binary. It is closer to building on top of than truly modifying, in that you can tailor things to your needs slightly but cannot make fundamental changes to the underlying thing.

by chasd004 hours ago|

prev|

[-]

> I literally don't know what else you are demanding for the "open source" label.

you need to "literally" go read the definition of open source software or even ask an LLM to define it for you. Weights + inference code are not the source code they're more like the compiled binary. Making modifications to the behavior of a model with additional training is like writing a mod for minecraft. Sure, you can change things but it doesn't make it open source.

Calling these models "open source" is an old trap that software companies use to use. Free to download but then, once you're fully comitted, the trap snaps shut and you must pay up to continue.

by jmiskovic1 hours ago|

parent|

[-]

The vendor lock-in trap does not apply here. Users don't actually even run the original weights, they mostly use open source inference engines with open source agent harness. If AI provider decided to start charging, a) released models would not be affected, and b) people would drop it instantly and move to other models.

The actual problem is that we know nothing about the training set of any open-weights model. They could be intentionally biased to influence users, from political censorship to brand advertising, or general shaping of cultural norms. You run the model on own hardware not knowing if it is designed to act against you. Having whole chain open source would allow audit and reproducing the results.

by keketi4 hours ago|

prev|

[-]

> I literally don't know what else you are demanding for the "open source" label

Training data and code.