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Surely you would admit that this Administration’s approach to immigration has been both chaotic and cruel. The workers who were given status in the United States expected a predictable process, not one that changes weekly based on the unserious personal whims of a bored, ill-informed and vindictive man. In any case, the prioritization of citizens’ wellbeing writ large is demonstrably _not_ a feature of this Administration’s agenda.
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The entire point of a temporary visa is that the host country can refuse to renew and force you to leave the country at their whim. When you apply for such a visa you accept those terms.
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I wish, I desperately wish, this "both sides" fallacy would die.

There has not been this level of chaos in government decision-making in generations. I have no idea how far back you'd have to go to find a president changing the rules for business arbitrarily every single month.

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I've spent the last month just dealing with new local government laws. This level of chaos has been the norm for a while now.
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The government should not be doing inhumane things to people. This should not be a controversial statement.
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The first responsibility is to protect the rights of all people in the country. Citizenship is not required for protected rights
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Why be a citizen at all if non-citizens have all the benefits and none of the responsibilities?
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They can’t vote in most elections (except a few local elections in some places) and aren’t guaranteed entry at the border. They also can’t work a litany of jobs requiring citizenship.

They get a plenty bad enough shake. Let’s grant them the absolute basics of humane treatment and a fair shake at getting citizenship, sheesh.

Other countries get by just fine not having such a huge delta between haves and have nots on citizenship, and their social cohesion is better for it.

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A litany of jobs? Do you mean a minority of jobs - civil service, some clearance jobs, holding some offices?

The Immigration and Nationality Act makes citizenship discrimination illegal.

>Other countries get by just fine

Which ones are your model for the US?

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Oh, spare me. What an unserious statement. The entire point of an I-9 is to discriminate on citizenship, which is the document that HR pesters you on for your first few days at any new job anyway.
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I have a better idea. Let them make their countries worth living in. If they don't like it in America they can leave. Because unlike Americans, we don't have another home country to retreat to.

Most countries have MUCH higher standards for immigration and their citizens much better off for it.

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> Most countries have MUCH higher standards for immigration and their citizens much better off for it.

I think your math is off. The US is in the top 10 for GDP per capita, 99% literacy rate when the global average is 87%, the poverty rate is below average, the list goes on. Most countries in the world aren’t even considered developed nations. Immigration has been America’s core growth engine for two and a half centuries. There may be problems but you are deluding yourself if you think the whole economy hasn’t benefited from immigration. Even when that immigration was through chattel slavery.

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I'm relieved that the magic soil in the United States can improve these peoples' lives.
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It’s a symbiotic relationship. The reason the US is so prosperous is due to immigration, mostly during the 20th century. The US cannot run off of just the existing citizens. Well, it can, for a while, but not indefinitely.
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Can't? Do citizens expire? Are you unaware of the concept of children?
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I am aware of the concept of children, thank you. Not sure why we have to argue like we have a stick up our asses, but here we are.

As you're well aware, the US is just barely meeting replacement birth rate. Most developed countries are under it. And the big picture: the US is all about growth. Economic growth, cultural growth. If you want more of that, you need immigrants. Sorry, that's how the US has always worked. If you don't agree with it, then I'm not sure the US is the country for you.

There are plenty of developed, homogeneous countries. Diversity is what makes the US the US. Please, feel free to seek a country that better aligns with your beliefs.

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>As you're well aware, the US is just barely meeting replacement birth rate.

Oh no, they'll have to raise wages due to lack of labor. How terrible for the working class (everyone).

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Without immigration lowering wages more citizens would be able to afford having children.

> Diversity is what makes the US the US.

Is this meant as a joke? I can't tell, but it is completely ahistorical. The foundera wrote about their demographic intention extensively.

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The founders were, themselves, immigrants. From multiple different countries.

Of course racism existed when the founding father's were alive, we had slavery. But, from the beginning, the US has been a country founded on immigration and racial diversity. Yes, we did not, at the time, consider black Americans Americans. But we certainly do now, and have for a very long time.

I'm also not convinced immigration lowers wages. People throw this around, while providing no evidence. And, even if it did, I think it's obvious that wages is not the cause behind birth rate decline.

All the developed countries, with the high wages and standard of living, have poor birthrate. All the developing countries, with low wages and low standard of living, have high birthrates. Hmm.

If we look at the demographic progression of nations the "culprit" behind birthrate is development. Particularly, social development, the liberation of women. Turns out lots of women don't actually want to have children, and when we stop pressuring them socially, they don't. They work instead.

Obviously this is a hard problem to solve. If you want to solve birthrate, you need to de-develop your nation. Not good. Or, some other solution, which nobody has found yet. Or, you just have immigration, which we do and have had.

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> They get a plenty bad enough shake.

Then why are they coming if it's so bad?

> Other countries get by just fine not having such a huge delta between haves and have nots on citizenship, and their social cohesion is better for it.

Outside of the USA and a few other countries, there is no social cohesion at all shared between natives and immigrants/foreigners, just different levels of animosity. Even between different native ethnicities and groups.

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What responsibility does a non-citizen shirk? They must follow lows, pay taxes, etc. Even for things like social security.

I sometimes wonder where these concepts come from, because it sounds like somebody tricked you into thinking that non-citizens are somehow taking things from everybody else, rather than contributing just the same as everyone.

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Rights and benefits are two different things, surely you aren’t that dumb. Do you think non-citizens can get Social Security or a US Passport?
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If they have almost all of the rights and almost all of the benefits but none of the responsibilities, which you ignored, then the point stands.

They benefit from the entire bill of rights (arguably rightly so).

They have better job prospects.

They can purchase homes with federal loans.

They can attend college.

They can invest and own companies.

They can even draw from Social Security.

For now, non-citizens cannot vote openly in congressional elections, but can in minor elections like school boards and municipal votes.

They cannot be drafted to defend a nation. They have to remain employed, but enforcement is questionable and creative solutions exist.

It's a pretty good deal. Oh, and of course dual citizens always have an escape hatch to leave one country and their debts behind should they choose.

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> Do you think non-citizens can get Social Security or a US Passport?

Non-citizen Nationals can get a US passport. For example, folks born in American Samoa.

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> Do you think non-citizens can get Social Security

I know they can (because I checked).

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If they have paid into it like anybody else, crucially. They met their responsibilities.
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The vast majority of citizens never made a conscious choice to be one.
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How, in any way does this help the wellbeing of a citizen? Why bring up that very strange point, which is completely unconnected to the massive harm here.

If anything, these policies harm the citizens of the US in a myriad of ways. There's zero benefit to be had from any of this. Except for the joy tha tthe cruel feel in causing others misery, but that's not citizens, that's just a few sick people.

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The mere suggestion that this admin is doing this or anything else for the wellbeing of its citizens is a complete departure from reality.

It's very clear what the motivations are, and just because they don't seem harmful in isolation doesn't mean it's going to have no consequences for everyone else.

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And its going so great for our citizens wellbeing. Oodles of programs for the needy smashed to bits. Corruption and self dealing out the wazoo. Protestors shot to death by ICE agents. A legendarily stupid war fucking up international shipping. Illegal tariffs changing daily.
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