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"Defensive systems" can be interpreted broadly to include cybersecurity.

But yes, it's an arms race. Saying it's not an arms race isn't going to make it not an arms race. Warning that it is an arms race isn't ethically wrong.

Is participating in an arms race ethically wrong? Maybe you could ask the Ukrainians how they feel about drone R&D?

Individuals can quit, but for society, getting out of an arms race is harder than just quitting. You don't get to be Switzerland without having a strong defensive position and the right foreign relations.

But there's at least talk about "pacing" and that's a start.

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The point of the comment you're responding to is that it is at this point hardly an arms race: The frontier of ai development is happening completely inside 2 American companies, the most significant results outside America mostly involve (impressive!) distillation, which means their progress is conditional on progress of the big closed source models.

So if the race here is between 2 American companies, this is obviously something that can be resolved with legislation, ie a solution that doesn't depend on the bargaining power of either party.

An arms race implies that the only solution would be either one side winning decisively, or both parties negotiating peace.

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Development and improvement of nuclear weapons was an entirely American project until the technology was exfiltrated and then it became an instant arms race. That cat is already out of the bag with LLMs. Distillation is just the fastest way to keep pace but that in no way prevents other countries and actors from doing it the hard way.

An arms race doesn’t imply one side winning, it’s not a race with an end goal, it’s a race to keep pace or retake the lead position which can oscillate between the parties involved indefinitely. The other option is to agree to make no further progress or to disarm.

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>an entirely American project until the technology was exfiltrated

No it wasn't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_Alloys

Post WW2 the USA (for a bunch of quite interesting reasons) excluded the British. But, of course, the British had acquired a lot of knowledge from the program and were able to develop their own bomb.

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There were prominent scientists like Oppenheimer who did not think it needed to become an arms race, and campaigned against that. But there were others like Teller and the military who made it into an arms race, and kept upping the ante with more powerful nukes.

Point being humans make theses decisions. It's not an inevitability.

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It was an inevitability. Unfortunately Oppenheimer was a fool when it came to politics. In game theory terms, the perceived benefits of "defecting" were too large.

The military mostly only developed more powerful nukes because early delivery and guidance systems were so inaccurate that they needed a large blast radius to hit anything. Once enabling technologies improved, R&D shifted from power to accuracy.

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> the most significant results outside America mostly involve (impressive!) distillation, which means their progress is conditional on progress of the big closed source models.

I don't think this is true. Distillation helps, but Chinese researchers today are very capable on their own.

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Do you think China considers it an arms race? Do you think they are not trying to protect their digital infrastructure with and from AI? Trying to gain an offensive AI advantage?

In a geopolitical sense OpenAI and Anthropic are effectively the same entity, the entity they both serve and bow to: the USA.

Given the adversarial stance the USA has taken towards almost the entire world, it is a guarantee that China will not step on the brakes, whatever the USA decides to do.

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Right, but currently the USA is still pretty far ahead. If you're in a race and the person who's in the lead by a large margin says "this is getting out of hand, how about we take a break?" isn't it obviously in the interest of the disadvantaged party to agree?

And if one of the parties can put a stop to the race like that at any time, is it really an arms race? The current balance between the US and China when it comes to AI strikes me as much more lopsided than the balance between the US and the USSR when it came to nuclear weapons.

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> If you're in a race and the person who's in the lead by a large margin says "this is getting out of hand, how about we take a break?" isn't it obviously in the interest of the disadvantaged party to agree?

Only if you trust the other party (which very clearly doesn't hold in this case) or monitoring the break can be done independently and reliably (it can't), and you expect the gap to narrow rather than widen during a pause (this is probably the case, with China expected to catch up).

> And if one of the parties can put a stop to the race like that at any time, is it really an arms race?

It is. It's a Prisoner's Dilemma: if the parties cooperate the best outcome is reached, but betrayal of either party still gains an advantage for either party from their perspective. Betrayal both ways just means both parties are equally fucked.

For nuclear weapons it has become quite clear that even for small players, being in the race and having at least a few nukes is far more rational than having none. Ukraine found out the hard way that giving them up in exchange for promises of good behavior just sets you up for getting stabbed in the back.

> The current balance between the US and China when it comes to AI strikes me as much more lopsided than the balance between the US and the USSR when it came to nuclear weapons.

I think people really underestimate the Chinese here. A lot of work in AI research, including in the USA, has been done by people with Chinese ancestry or even nationality. The Chinese education system definitely seems much better than the American one and there is also just a far larger number of Chinese graduates/researchers.

Add to that the stable political climate, state friendliness towards AI R&D, and a requirement to be creative in utilizing computing power rather than relying on brute force/numbers; Further revolutionary fundamental advances may very well originate there rather than in the USA.

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> For nuclear weapons it has become quite clear that even for small players, being in the race and having at least a few nukes is far more rational than having none. Ukraine found out the hard way that giving them up in exchange for promises of good behavior just sets you up for getting stabbed in the back.

I've heard a different perspective on this: Nuclear weapons need maintaining, and even maintaining them was probably beyond Ukraine's capability. Qaddafi gave up nuclear weapons after determining that they were just too expensive to be worth it; Iran damaged its economy to the tune of trillions of dollars trying to get nuclear weapons and so far failed; NK managed to get them but impoverished their nation to do it.

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The arms race is created by American companies who justify the risk by claiming China will win the race if they don't. But it's the American companies who are purshing the arms race forward.
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honest question - could have this be avoided even if you ignore American accelerationism? IMO once the transformers paper was published and we learned that LLMs can read code the arms race became inevitable.

The only way it could be avoided is if the world had an effective cooperation framework _before_ the tool was discovered but we're still in developmental infancy in that regard. You can argue that this accelerationism makes things worse but I don't think you can argue that it's causal.

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I am personally concerned by what defensive can mean. Alignment of these models is inherently a non-neutral proces, and currently what values are reinforced is decided by a few OpenAI engineers. I feel that any 'defensive model' will further ingrain current values and actively resist the natural progression of our society. This is especially the case for any use of these models for policing or military.

Maybe people are rightfully concerned about the capabilities of the models of other (non/less democratic) states. But if we are concentrating power in the hands of few and at the same time allowing the creation of a weapon that thwarts any offense, how do we ensure the health of our democratic societies?

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Defense can just be patching unintended vulnerabilities in code.
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I don't understand what you are trying to say. Do you believe AI is not an arms race?
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> the best argument for AI is that it's an arms race

It's best not to reduce AI momentum to arguments, especially the "best" arguments (meaning I suppose most acceptable?).

The same forces that feed and motivate humans and that drive resource and governance decisions generally also strongly support building AI, particularly insofar as it can deliver strategic advantages in our many competitions over resources and influence. Cyber-defensive use is at best a nice side-effect, but itself might be cast aside for the sake of other advantages.

In this historical moment, due to the need to generate public interest in product, equity, and debt offerings, some of this building happens in the open. But the military-industrial complex prizes secrecy, in part to hide capabilities, but mostly to imply more capabilities than they actually have. Historically, critical innovation will get bottled up in secrecy (which not coincidentally gives them the power to choose who will gain), but frankly that market is much smaller than enterprise and consumer. So we can bet that it's not only "open models" that are targeted to go under wraps, and more broadly we should not believe that the intentions of researchers matter, but whether governments are more interested in the strategic benefits than the economic ones (or view the economic ones as net-negative for their jurisdications).

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People expect a sort of arms race, at least the AI providers. But you don't need a more capable ai to stop ai from mucking with your systems today. Airgaps are the solution. Protected networks with independent infrastructure from the public internet. Most of the truly important stuff operates this way already. Eventually you might sever yourself off as well, you might say you will stop going to HN or other sites one day as signal to noise is too poor with AI fodder slop, you might use local models you control, and you might keep most of your hardware from connecting to any untrusted hosts. Essentially, you go dark.

It is also an open question if social media will die out in the face of AI. So much AI crap is dumped into these networks now that perhaps eventually users will probably be put off enough to find something else to do with their spare time. I mean most people do call out ai slop or even just guess if something is ai all over social media already. Some eat it up of course but there is a bit of a push back in a way that is sort of unprecedented, when you consider all the lack of push back relatively with all other forms of enshittification affecting consumers over the years.

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Airgaps are a temporary solution. AI can manipulate humans, and robots will soon traverse the gap physically.
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Yep. Such a disgusting industry. They created the arm race, push for the arm race, put themselves in position to benefit from the arm race
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The entire problem with arms races is that any individual entity cannot avoid participating.

sama and his cadre are uniquely evil captains in this race, but they're completely replaceable and the dynamic would remain the same.

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They could work to coordinate an end to the arms race.
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The arms race is an intrinsic game theoretical property of a multi-adversarial-actor scenario involving exponential growth of a universally potent technology. It's almost certainly winner-take-all, on a global scale, which behooves everyone to participate.

And no, I don't think it will end well.

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The actors here are states or corporations embedded in societies that risk growing popular backlash against the technology.

The other factor is that if it is truly an "alien mind", racing incurs risks to all players. In game-theoretic terms it may be more like a stag hunt than a prisoner's dilemma. In which case cooperation is an equilibrium.

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No previous technological arms race has ever concluded with a single winner.
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Just like the rest of military stuff.
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But done by corporations, and selling that service to the general public, including their competitors and adversary countries
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"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."
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It's capitalism taken to its extreme, yeah? You have to be more cost efficient or more capable or seem more or you lose to the competition who outperforms you there.

Where arms races are concerned, seems more like Seth Godin's "race to the bottom" concept: the winner has the capability, or the ability to project the capability, to destroy the most the fastest and most sustainability for their economy,

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