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That is not "Microsoft goals", that is "one employee's LinkedIn comment of his personal goal".
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It's less one guy's plan and more one Microsoft Research team's research goal to investigate technologies that might enable that in a few years. So probably more institutional support than just some guy, but less actually planning on succeeding in the full ambitious goal.
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No, after this made some waves he or some other senior (I don't remember exactly) reported that this is not an official plan.
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Sorry, by "official support" I mean that there is support within MSR to investigate these tools as a research project, no that there is a plan to actually do the conversion.
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what's your point?
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There have also been repeated statements from NSA & CISA that they recommend all development should be done in memory safe languages.

It's abundantly clear that there is a strong headwind towards memory safety, whether that's Rust or GC'd languages.

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A headwind makes it harder to advance in the direction you're going. I think you might have meant to say "there is a strong tailwind towards memory safety".
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You're right, I better do a 360 on my comment ;)
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A 180 might be more useful :)
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oh boy, maybe geometry intuitions and spatial reasoning are what's really needed.
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Or maybe a nice sabbatical aboard a sailboat expedition.
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Or maybe not, because that's where confusing 180 and 360 degrees or headwind and tailwing will REALLY bite you.
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Sure, but if you come back, you'll have really learned that stuff!
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Do it twice to be sure
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That was obviously a joke...
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> A headwind makes it harder to advance in the direction you're going

nit: except in aviation

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Also in aviation, but with caveats; you want to take off and land with a headwind, because the headwind gives a greater airspeed which means greater lift.
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This is true for takeoffs but not for landings. You want to land with a headwind because this means that for the same airspeed you have a lower groundspeed, i.e. when you actually touch down you're going slower on the runway than if you touched down at the same airspeed but with a tailwind.
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In other words, it's because of the greater lift.
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Surely a headwind makes an aircraft travel slower over the ground so it takes longer to reach the destination?
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The recommendation is qualified for typical apps that do not have extreme performance or scale requirements. They use Java for many, many things.

C++ is still indicated for systems that are optimizing for performance and scalability characteristics, since it intrinsically requires a lot of "unsafe" constructs.

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In real world systems, Java can beat programs in compiled languages like C++ and Rust when it comes to throughput and even latency.
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This is so untrue I still don't know how anyone can even claim this. When I run tests in Rust, the biggest portion of the time is spent compiling the test (lets say 3-4 seconds), then the tests conclude practically instantly, in less than half a second.

Meanwhile when I run tests on my JVM projects it can take 30 seconds just to start and the test execution is extremely slow too.

Even if you do manage to match the performance after warmup, you still have the issue that keeping the class files in RAM plus the JIT compilation state will cost more memory than simply running AOT compiled code. You simply cannot write processes that use a single digit MiB amount of memory on a JVM and getting down to 2 digits is theoretically possible but requires significant effort.

Once you get into the micro optimizations like the lack of mutable aliasing in Rust, there is significantly more potential for auto vectorization.

What you mean by "real world systems" is probably defined in such a narrow way that all the weaknesses of Java programs don't count anymore.

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> C++ is still indicated for systems that are optimizing for performance

The only evidence I've seen for this is that people with a vested interest in my believing this keep saying it is true. That's the exact same evidence I have for Trump having triumphed in Iran. Do better if you want me to believe you.

> since it intrinsically requires a lot of "unsafe" constructs.

This is an excellent reason to choose Rust. The whole point of Rust's technology is to enable you to encapsulate the tricky difficult part of the problem so that people don't blow their foot off working on the mundane parts of the software. And the truth is there are always mundane parts of the software.

I'm feeling generous so I'll add more here: Vec<T> illustrates how this works. This is a growable array type, C++ has std::vector<T> for much the same concept. But inside Vec<T> this encapsulation is used heavily so that there's a RawVec<T>, which doesn't care about knowing how many things are in the growable array, only about its capacity, then a RawVecInner which doesn't even care what things we're keeping in the array, it's just an appropriately large container for whatever it is, that RawVec<T> remembers what T is if that becomes important - and then a Cap which doesn't even contain things, it's just in charge of being able to represent the capacity correctly while having the same shape as "just" an integer but not always necessarily working like one.

Vec<T> is entirely safe to use, very pleasant, no danger. But internally it's extremely sophisticated, hence the layers of different types encapsulating different pieces of the problem to make a growable array type with excellent performance.

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Tangent: your comment would have been stronger without the politics.

Btw, Rust ain't the only vector here. With an LLM at your side, you can also write your performance and safety critical parts in Lean and prove them correct.

Lean can compile to some pretty fast code. (Though it needs a bit more engineering work around eg SIMD to get really fast.)

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I do think though, it is in the best interests for all compiled languages to eventually bootstrap themselves, instead of depending on either C or C++ for their implementation.

Either that, or we really need to keep improving C and C++ safety story, if they are to stay around on those language runtimes, or compiler backends.

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I heard that unsafe rust is then unsafer than c++. I haven't learned rust yet, and I get that it's a tradeoff because the rest of the system can still be relied on. But how true is that first statement?
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It's not helpful to think of it as "unsafer" but I think the way I'd explain this goes as follows:

Rust has some stricter and more complicated rules even than a language like C++. Just as in C++ you absolutely must obey these rules at all times. However, in Safe Rust the tooling will ensure that following those rules is never your problem. You don't even need to know what the rules are, just like you don't need to know why a plane works let alone how to fly it to get on a jetliner and fly across the country for $$$.

In unsafe Rust, it is your job as programmer to understand and obey these rules because the "unsafe super powers" you can use only in these blocks cannot be checked by the tooling, it can help sometimes but you can't rely on it. Writing ten lines of correct unsafe Rust is thus probably significantly harder than writing ten lines of C++. But the Rust programmer knows when they need to be at their sharpest, they need proper review by somebody paying attention, they need to slow down and think it through, versus the rest of the safe Rust where it's less scary, in C++ every line you write might be a fatal problem.

Basically, walking a tight rope is harder than everyday walking, but you know when you're on a tight rope, you've trained for it, everybody is focused on your safety - so actually maybe that's not a problem, lot of people get injured just walking about every day.

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Rust allows much more aggressive optimization of the reference types than C++. If you have a &T, the compiler can assume that it will not change over the entire lifetime of the reference, and reorder things even past things that a C++ compiler would never reorder across. This can easily bite you badly if you have the mental model of C/C++ pointers and step into unsafe land. There is a separate warning for:

    unsafe {
        mem::transmute::<&T, &mut T>(t) //takes a &T, returns a &mut T
    }
in the compiler because this is something that a lot of people think might be safe (I'm running single-threaded, everything would be so much simpler if I just mutated this bit while no-one's looking), but is in fact pretty much always UB of the nasal demons type. But there are more ways to step on this problem than the most apparent way, and the compiler is not able to protect you from all of them.

To be clear, just declaring a block to be unsafe does not immediately do anything in Rust, it just allows a set of primitives that are not normally available, so it is possible to use unsafe judiciously without immediately stepping into a million landmines. You just have to be careful and ideally read the docs and the nomicon page for the operations you do, especially if they are very long.

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That statement is incorrect.

It's harder to write unsafe code in Rust. That doesn't make it "unsafer". What I mean is this, if you want to write unsafe code in Rust the C++ way, your entire program has to have unsafe markers everywhere. It's just as unsafe as C++ at that point.

But if you want to write unsafe code in Rust the Rust way, you run into a requirement that didn't exist in C or C++: The abstraction around the unsafe code must be safe for you to drop the unsafe marker. This created a unique category of abstractions that no other language has, so if you are working on unsafe code in Rust you are often a pioneer doing something never done before.

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> This is an excellent reason to choose Rust. The whole point of Rust's technology is to enable you to encapsulate the tricky difficult part of the problem so that people don't blow their foot off working on the mundane parts of the software. And the truth is there are always mundane parts of the software.

The problem is that it actually sucks for dealing with the encapsulated parts. The reason everyone loves Rust is because they can just import a package where somebody else did the hard part for them and not worry their pretty little brains about a thing, getting high performance with minimal concern. That is a valid advantage, and that does make more mundane usage of the language safer. But it does not make the unsafe parts safer. There is every reason for having unsafe-oriented languages with ergonomics that actually make working with unsafe code more reliable too. The annoying thing about Rust is that 90% of its users are religious dogmatists who insist that Rust is the only valid language rather than accepting different languages can have different advantages, and moreover that 90% is basically the 90% who are benefitting from Rust while not being the ones who have to write unsafe code themselves.

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The autovectorizer works quite well in llvm with all the aliasing guarantees rust gives it. Especially now fastmath hit so wide types aren't necessary anymore. I don't need unsafe or crates that use unsafe to beat the performance of c++. If you are doing something very specific with niche intrinsics llvm can't use, then maybe I'd have to use unsafe. But I don't run into that. Rust is faster for the same reasons it avoids UB. Also the Kool aid comes in multiple flavors!
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What with this llms not so good in rust mantra? Something changed? In my experience they are pretty good, but haters gonna hate.
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LLMs are unusually good at Rust; it's an optimization target. And the constraints provided by "successfully compile with the Rust compiler" make it work well for agent iteration.

(I have mixed feelings about that, but empirically it holds true.)

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Yes, I found these agents to be better at producing acceptable Rust than at producing acceptable Python code.

In addition to the Rust compiler, you can also tell them to make clippy happy. Both in normal mode or if you are feeling nitpicky, you can also tell them to make clippy::pedantic happy.

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Can you give an example where an LLM produced low quality Python code? Python is such a simple language. This seems hard to imagine. Plus, the amount of open source Python that LLMs can be trained upon is enormous.
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I am looking at an MR a colleague threw at me right now where the code quality produced is atrocious.

Multiple redefinitions of enums - except they aren't enum but random lists of strings - that also diverge in different files.

Things consistently typed as `Any` or `dict[str, Any]` even though the functions clearly are expecting specifics, not `Any`

This is the worst MR I've had to review yet in my life. Absolute garbage.

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Most people it's good at syntax and the error messages give you a good loop. But the domains rust actually makes sense in tend to be quite punishing on slop both culturally and technically.
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To add to this, I find that the delta between the amount of code and pain you get with good and bad abstractions is substantially higher in rust than other languages. It's alright to muddle through in Python or TS, but with Rust bad abstractions are punishing.

LLMs are pretty bad at picking abstractions.

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It's good that it's punishing when the abstraction are bad: then you notice. With Python or TS, as you say, you get less feedback.
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That's true, although inconvenient for production code that needs to be delivered yesterday.

Sadly, agents don't mind generating gigatons of code instead of refactoring the abstractions.

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It would be possible for me to give a more nuanced take, but the upshot is: none of that shit is going to work 100%.

One may get local maxima like an unsafe bonanza, or something that introduces a custom runtime memory management discipline at the cost of performance etc. Fully equivalent C++ to Rust in full generality is mainly wishful thinking. Of course that does not mean one should not try it.

See also my other comment.

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Oh, I 100% agree. The question is how much you can reduce the effort of the port/migration, and in particular the validation effort.

I've worked on projects where the core bits of code were "90%" converted by some automated tool, and in my view the overall benefit to the project timeline was probably only 20-30% because of the Amdahl's-law-type overheads of validation and bits of code not supported by the automation/conversion process. Nice, but no silver bullet.

Non-idiomatic porting also isn't super-helpful if the resulting code isn't maintainable.

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As I pointed out in a sibling comment, the plan isn't for it to work. This is a job posting for a researcher at MSR to investigate what it might look like someday.
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There is no way they can re-write everything in Rust by 2030. No way. Even new projects are modern C++ at MSFT. Some teams are creating their Rust/C++ binding but that's a very small fraction.
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Just in case slop is not strong enough.
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These kinds of sanitized corporate, feel-good articles are anything but interesting.

A disgruntled former Azure employee posting what a clusterfuck their SW, including their Rust effort is? That’s both rare and interesting.

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