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Since F-Droid (i.e., the repositories, not the app) builds all apps, a practical solution would be for the repositories (i.e., their signing keys) to be recognized by El Goog. Whether and how much help / obstacle the "maybe we do evil" company puts up for / against this is a different question.
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It seems to me this is a blocker to use if google can restrict sideloading like this. Its not going to end with just get people requiring to register their app with an identity. Wont they be able to put presser on f-droid devs to lock out software they consider a threat to some business model?
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> sideloading

That newspeak term should just disappeared. It only contributes to the image that downloading and installing an app is something that is outside the "happy path". Installing software of your choice on a device you own shouldn't be demonised

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Fully agree. Installing software is installing software, signed or unsigned, app store or not.
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Surely you see how installing unvetted software on a device that holds your entire life, bank info, photos, etc. probably shouldn't be part of the "happy path" for most people. You shouldn't even install software you haven't fully vetted from the google play store. This should be drilled into non-technical people.

Those of us who want to can easily bypass it. My mom who doesn't know what she's doing and gets a phishing email with a fancy apk attached should probably have a hard time using it.

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> a device that holds your entire life, bank info, photos, etc.

I'd see it the other way around and say that a device running an operating system controlled by some company shouldn't hold your entire life, bank info, photos, etc.

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How do you get around this? Literally every bank, brokerage, etc... is hell bent on you using your phone for everything from 2FA to passkeys, etc... They dont even imagine people have computers anymore or want two+ physical devices/controls on what can be done with which factors
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That means education for people: don't perform actions that are in emails.

Blocking apps is like blocking buying of knifes because one can hurt themselves.

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Have you ever tried to educate a 70+ year old person on this kind of stuff? Their eyes gloss over and they don't care. I've told my mother not to install random apps on her phone several times yet she still does it. I could probably send her a phishing e-mail right now that 'looks like' it's from me (so long as my name is in the from: field that's enough) and she'd follow the instructions to install a malicious apk too.

"Everyone should just be smarter/more educated" is what I used to think as well. I now fully understand some people have no desire to be educated in any way and it's a net good for society to not have a large % of devices compromised.

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yes, got my father on linux a decade (or more) ago. He's 84. No problem. Most recently we discussed being vigilant against vishing.

Now my in-laws (similar age) one very demented, the other thinks he knows best because he was a chemical engineer...they could use some built in protections

so ultimately I think some default level of "guardrail" is appropriate, but it should have a not too burdensome escape hatch

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>so ultimately I think some default level of "guardrail" is appropriate, but it should have a not too burdensome escape hatch

Which is really exactly what google is implementing here and why I'm so perplexed so many people are upset. You or I or smart parents (my mother has never used a computer in her life and wouldn't want to) will have absolutely no issue sideloading apps after the proposed changes.

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It's full of malicious apps on google play. There are none on f-droid.

The logical conclusion is that fdroid should be allowed and google play banned by default.

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Because education has worked so well on Windows.

There's not an easy answer, but the non-answer of "people just need to be educated" is trivially dismissed.

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I'm not sure the situations are comparable when Windows doesn't have this permission system where the apps are still very limited in what they can access unless you grant specific directory access or access to the contact list or such
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It does, but approximately nobody uses it, because Microsoft also tried to apply loads of constraints on what kinds of program could exist when they rolled it out, as part of their "all Windows software should also work on Windows Phone and Xbox" campaign.
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> a device that holds your entire life, bank info, photos, etc

That device was called personal computer for decades, and the world didn't end for the simplicity of installing software on it.

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The difference is that the only people who used those personal computers were (are) an educated subset of the middle class in developed countries.
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> That device was called personal computer

To be fair, mobile phones being locked down probably contributed to the mass adoption of e.g. mobile payments and banking.

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Web banking was offered by all banks long before banking apps, and you could of course access it from smartphones

The move to apps made things more difficult, if anything

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Offered but less broadly adopted. Having a platform that doesn't tend to get infected when used by normal users helped with that.
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It was adopted by everyone I knew

And they used an actually secure OTP dongle, eventually ditched by most banks because, yeah SMS codes and apps are safer............

It's now that a lot of people can't use any remote banking, because their bank's app is huge or refuses to run on their phone.

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The world may not of ended but to of people have been hurt by malware ruining their computer, cryptolocking all of their company's files for ransom, stealing all of your login credentials, stealing cryptocurrency, taking secret photos with your webcam, screen recording what you are doing on your computer, etc.

The "personal computer" has a terrible track record.

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For many decades, people have been mistakenly putting diesel fuel into their gasoline cars, yet we never outlawed diesel vehicles. You can only do so much to protect people without destroying their rights to their property.
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the pump handles are green tho
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Society moved to having it so diesel fuel pump would not fit into gasoline cars.

Society didn't ban doing it, but put up barriers that help the average person from doing something dangerous.

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Just like people get robbed, it is as common as that.

It doesn't mean one can't buy nice things because one is afraid of being robbed.

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Except a sane society puts rules in place against robbers and then bans such people from society.
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There have already been laws against scammers and hackers for a long time.
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That seems to happen on phones too
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It is much rarer since it needs 0 day to do these at the same level as possible on a pc. The play store scanning apps for malware is an important safety mechanism against this. Further more imposter apps like YouTube but with no ads that are Trojans that steal people's accounts.
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Or the accessibility permission, or to some degree the access all files ones; but it's also enough for the app to pilfer the data you trust it with.

The Play Store's scanning is very far from perfect, and the amount of crap that's on it, combined with the trust that people have towards it, and apps' unfettered access to internet, makes malicious software easily more common than on PCs.

Even without considering as malicious the enormous data collection that almost everything on the Play Store does, encouraged by Google

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Block installs outside of playstore ON/OFF (ON by default) isn't any less secure. "Sideloading" is scaremongering.
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If the issue Google has with sideloading is really just the rampant app piracy (and the malware that comes with cracked apps) that might be something F-Droid can accomodate.
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I don't think malware is the problem, as most malware comes directly via Google's ecosystem carried by ads. Just recently I had to uninstall some app from the play store since it tried to distribute malware through scary pop-ups and had it replaced with something from f-droid for someone I know.
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> most malware comes directly via Google's ecosystem carried by ads.

Google's own Play Store is filled with outright malware too, no ads needed. The idea that Google has to control what people are allowed to install on their phones isn't really for the protection of anyone except Google.

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They have to use one key per app, otherwise independent app could end up sharing some permissions (IIRC).
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The Emacs version for Android makes uses of something like this IIRC by signing a version of Termux with the same key and distributing it in the same SourceForge repo such that Emacs on Android can access CLI tooling like git for example.
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It seems google is going to allow an "advanced flow" that is scam resistant by requiring the user to wait 24 hours before they can start installing their own apps. It sucks, but assuming they don't change the plan again, F-Droid should be able to continue working.
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> assuming they don't change the plan again

Knowing Google, that's a big assumption

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It looks exactly the same as now. You will have to do Google's 24 hour flow thing, but it's not like that's going to stop anyone who appreciates what F-droid brings to the table.
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Alternative app stores are mandated atleast here in the EU I believe?
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Yes but the process to enforce it is intentionally so difficult that nobody can do it.
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Yes, but the ability to install any software isn't. goggle can still decide to allow only "official" apps in """3rd party""" stores.
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Switch to GrapheneOS or HarmonyOS
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Currently, switching to GrapheneOS means giving Google money. Next year's Motorola-based alternative is also likely going to be several price classes above the Pixels you can currently put GrapheneOS on.
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Then buy a Pixel second-hand or when they hit rock-bottom prices, which usually happens after 6 months or so. At some point Google is probably not making a lot of profit from the devices anymore and they want to sell it to you for tracking and to sell Google One subscriptions, which are mostly irrelevant if you use GrapheneOS.
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I don't want to pay more than $150 for a phone, though. And installing an alternate OS is a real hassle.
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If the current $500 pixels are too expensive you're going to hate the $1000 motorolas.
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you can get a pixel 7 good condition for that
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Stretching that budget to about $350 would get you a new Pixel a-series, on sale. It's well worth it.
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Not really, GrapheneOS has a nice web installer that makes all the job for the user.
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I followed Pixel prices for the last year, and rock-bottom for a 256gb version (the current absolute minimum for a device without an sd, to my eyes) meant 450€.

There are occasional good deals for (unused) older models on eBay, but they're surprisingly rare.

I wonder if Google demands stores to give the old models back, after the release of newer ones; they disappear from every store extremely quickly.

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There's zero reason to buy a last year phone.
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The current lockdown plan is that you'll need to wait 24 hours before installing the first unauthorized app, right? So probably exactly the same as it is now except setting up a phone will take 24 hours longer.
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Updates on this have been slowly trickling out and the best I can discern is you will be able to still install apps from stores like F-Droid, but you have to go through a manual "advanced flow" which will most likely make you wait 24 hours before installing it and make you go through other hoops.

In short, google has referred to this as "increased user friction" to try and deter people from doing this. Essentially not making it impossible; just really frustrating for users so they get sick of the process and just install verified apps through them.

The only way I know around this is to install a custom rom like GrapheneOS or Lineage OS since this change targets Because the policy targets the Google Mobile Services (GMS) framework rather than the foundational Android Open Source Project (AOSP).

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Wait, it's not 24 hours per app though, is it? Isn't it 24 hours before the "allow installing apps from .apks" setting turns on once and for all?
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Yes, you toggle it once and that's it. It also moves with backups so new devices don't need that step.
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If I'm a developer I also need to wait 24hrs to test my app?
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There is an entire world of Android phones not controlled by Google, including GrapheneOS, LineageOS, and countless variations in China and other places where Google is effectively banned.
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Isn't it possible, however complicated, for users to undo the lockdown to install an app? The required 9 steps are noted at https://keepandroidopen.org/ for devices that use Google Play Services.

Irrespective, people should probably be migrating to a GrapheneOS or similar OS asap once the OS ships with a device.

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Ah this is good to know. Awful it's required, but glad there is a work around.
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Honestly not as bad as I feared it would be. Still not great and it's moving us farther from the idea that people who paid for the device should be allowed to install what they want on it, but as it stands it's a workable process. We'll see how quickly it takes Google to make it worse
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no root on graphene, non starter
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