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That's not what "memory safe" means. "Memory safe" is a term of art meaning "not susceptible to memory corruption exploits", like stack and heap overflows, UAFs, and type confusion. Last I checked, there are essentially no non-contrived memory corruption exploits for Go programs; the best you get are people demonstrating register control on contrived programs.

The definition I'm giving is the same as the ISRG's definition at MemorySafety.org. It's the thing everybody is talking about when they talk about memory safety.

The claim being made here is "big if true", because it would imply a lot more languages than Go "aren't memory safe", despite decades without memory corruption exploits.

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The exploits aren't the only issue; they just get a lot of air time.

It's remarkably easy to segfault Go applications with data races. Any object with multiple words (so a slice that's an array pointer, a size, and a capacity. Or a fat pointer with the object pointer and the vtable pointer), can be read in an inconsistent state from two threads which can cause out of bounds reads and writes. And this comes up all the time with how heavily the language encourages concurrency.

It's just difficult to actually exploit because of other considerations that practically add a lot of runtime entropy.

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They aren't the only issue in programming language theory, but they are the only issue in the ordinary context in which we discuss "memory safety", such that if someone not in a PLT forum says "is Go memory-safe" and you say "no" you will look a little batty.

The was for a time a vogue for "zero trust networking" and I'm fond of pointing out that the same thing happened there: people would come up with their own axiomatic derivation of what "zero trust" meant, but in reality it was a term of art meaning "non-Google implementations of BeyondCorp".

Terms of art are kryptonite for message board nerds.

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No, it has real world implications. I worked at a heavy go shop; every time we'd have a new batch of hiring, the segfault bugs would start rolling in from these memory unsafety issues. The data race detector was good, but not perfect. Yes, those new devs would look at you batty until they saw the bug reports roll in.

And yeah, we tend to use the PLT definitions when we're talking about literal semantics of programming languages. Nothing in this thread mandates a security focused sub-definition.

And even Rob Pike described Go as "not purely memory safe", in a slide that obviously references this exact data race behavior. https://go.dev/talks/2012/splash.slide#49 They considered this a practical tradeoff for simplicity versus the major managed languages defining what happens during data races in a way that doesn't allow you to break memory safety.

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Again: I am not disputing that there are correctness issues that come from having Go's concurrency and memory model, just like there are in (the large majority of) other languages with similar models. But those issues are not security problems, and security is what we're talking about when we talk about memory safety.
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I feel like you're coming from the sort of constrained view you're accusing others of.

Iny experience, the ultra security focused view isn't what most people think of when they hear memory safety. It's one aspect, but one among many. For instance debugability is much nicer when you can't break the object model and get a nice trace out of the system versus when you're trying to find memory corruption with gdb or something.

That said, even the ISRG definitions I've found don't list protection from exploits. It does include out of bounds memory accesses in what makes a memory unsafe language, which would discount Go. Yes, they explicitly list Go as a memory safe language, but there's a good chance that they simply don't know about this behavior.

As someone who used to freelance in exploit research, the go behavior doesn't seem insurmountable for finding an exploit on its own. Frankly it's all the other ecosystem stuff that makes it harder. The fact that go code has a habit of being deployed multiple times a day, you a lot of times don't have access to the binaries, there's generally no dynamic (on Linux) so you have no relatively stable code to find gadgets in, etc. (Although there are aspects of the language like the relative simplicity of the compiler that do help you in some of those regards).

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Yeah, we get it, you performatively hate go.
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I'm fine with Go, worked on peerdb & wal-g in Go. I enjoy programming in C too which lacks memory safety. I just don't claim otherwise
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Yes, but in practice they are extremely hard to exploit. It has been discussed extensively here on HN and in other forums.
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That does not make sense to me. Go is memory-safe, but it does not guarantee data-race freedom.

So whats your point here? Haskell?

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Probably Rust, that's always Rust with this kind of comments...
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Java and C# also define what happens during data races enough that you can't break the memory safety guarantees with them.
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Or basic software engineering and understanding of what memory safe means.
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Memory safety != Data race free
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Yes, but Rust gets you both.
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> That does not make sense to me.

You said that because you assumed Go is memory-safe in all conditions.

> Go is memory-safe

Yes, but only if there's no data race.

Go is not like Java. Java doesn't guarantee no data race, but when it happens, it's still memory-safe.

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Neither Java or Go guarantees data-race freedom. A data race does not by itself make ordinary Java or Go code memory-unsafe in the C/C++ sense.

I fail to see how a racy Java program is more memory safe than a racy Go program?

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Java arrays are thin pointers to Array objects, which contain the length and data in the same place (on the far side of the pointer). Since thin pointers cannot tear and Array objects cannot be resized, Arrays themselves are always memory-safe in safe code.

Go slices are fat pointers to undecorated memory. The slice itself is a 3-tuple of pointer, length, and capacity. If you append to a slice that's already at capacity, the Go runtime will allocate new memory for you and return a new 3-tuple. If you assign that result to a variable that's also being accessed by another goroutine, the latter can observe the slice in an inconsistent state. It can, for example, see the old pointer but with the new length, allowing out-of-bounds access. None of this requires unsafe code.

The same issue applies to string and interface variables, which are also fat pointers.

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Indeed.

Shared Go slices are a bad mix in concurrent code. This is a given. But its also not a fair comparison, you should instead compare java arrays to go arrays, not slices.

This goes for slices, strings and maps. Those a usually wrapped in a mutex, or used with sync primitives like sync.Map.

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The exact equivalences between the two languages are not the point, and anyway, Go arrays are fixed-size and have no Java equivalent.

The point is that Java does not have this problem in the language or the standard library. Of course, you should not write racy Go code; the language provides ample ways to avoid the race, such as channels; and the race detector will generally find such racy code, provided you turn it on. However, the issue is that this race leads to memory-safety violations; it can occur especially in code written by novice Go programmers, and it's well acknowledged by the language authors [1].

[1]: https://research.swtch.com/gorace

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> Those a usually wrapped in a mutex, or used with sync primitives like sync.Map.

The same can be said of C or C++ constructs (and many "anti-Rust" people have historically said that) -- the point is that their use is not enforced by the language and so bugs can lead to panics.

I write a fair amount of Go and Rust so I really don't think either language's flaws are fatal, but it comes off as weirdly defensive to redefine memory and data safety to be "well if you use it properly it's safe". It's totally fine to say this is a problem the Go language did not find important enough to require compile time enforcement and so solving it is done by convention and testing with the race detector (which a similar answer C and C++ give to this problem).

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From what I understand a data race on a simple built in feature like an interface pointer can result in a bad address / type pair, which can cause memory safety issues on any future access. I don't think you can get the JVM itself confused about what type a pointer points to.
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Java data race doesn't segfault
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There is no memory safety without freedom from data races. One is a prerequisite of the other. This is why languages like C# throw exceptions on unsynchronized concurrent access to some container types, and treat all property accesses as atomic.
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From the former head of the Go security team [1]:

> I have never seen real Go code (i.e. not code written purposefully to be exploitable) that was exploitable due to a data race.

And from tptacek in that same discussion [2]:

> The fact is that Go doesn't admit memory corruption vulnerabilities, and the way you know that is the fact that there are practically zero exploits for memory corruption vulnerabilities targeting pure Go programs, despite the popularity of the language.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44672003

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44672371

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Memory safety isn’t really about vulnerabilities. This thread is about Go, so I won’t go further into it here.
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Are you saying any language that does not promise data-race freedom is memory unsafe? That would rule out almost every programming language.
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I am, but you’d be surprised. All of the single-threaded languages are fine, for example. Very few languages are actually low-level enough to allow data races. C# and Java go to great lengths to avoid it.

Race conditions in general are another matter, and aren’t generally considered a requirement (though you can certainly create nasty bugs).

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I have not written a line of Java in 15 years. But im pretty sure Java has threads? Once you have threads, you pretty much have data races.

        Thread a = new Thread(() -> x++);
        Thread b = new Thread(() -> x++);

        a.start();
        b.start();
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The claim is not there is no data races in Java programs. The claim is that Java programs are memory safe, because the underlying virtual machine memory model is free of data races.

Go does not have that.

(Of course also Java may suffer from memory safety issues on system boundaries to unsafe code and due to JVM bugs.)

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I don’t know Java or the JVM, but if it’s anything like the CLR/.NET, this would either be compiled to atomic operations, or throw an exception.
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I suppose that if you create a map in one thread, and then access it from another thread, then that might cause segmentation faults? Because map is a type that is implemented in C.
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Yes, writing to maps isn't threadsafe, hence sync.Map. I learned this the hard way
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