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I feel like a much larger fraction of the economy is predatory than is made out to be in these gambling discourses. Examples:

* FSA plans are designed to get you to gamble on how much medical expenses you will have; if you overestimate, you either lose the money or spend it on shit you otherwise wouldn't buy; if you underestimate, you pay taxes on stuff you shouldn't be paying taxes on. The healthy alternative would be: Cut the FSA, let people just tax deduct medical expenses at tax time, even small ones.

* Extended warranty plans are baiting you to pay for something you are statistically unlikely to need. The healthy alternative would be: Just service things past warranty and charge a much more reasoanable price for it.

* Insurances but co-insurances, deductibles, clauses: "We'll bait you into paying because you think we'll pay but we'll not actually pay because it says in the fine print"

* Trip protection: Asking you to gamble on the probability of a mishap, instead of just covering mishaps out of the box

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In theory, insurance is the polar opposite of gambling. It's supposed to be reducing your risk, while gambling increases it. Like "do you want to gamble on that TV lasting, or do you want to buy the extended warranty?" But in practice, the pricing is so terrible that it's not worth it.
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Clearly, the solution is gambling insurance!
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> The healthy alternative would be: Cut the FSA, let people just tax deduct medical expenses at tax time, even small ones.

That's an interesting rabbit hole. Some FSA types, but not all, have full funds available on day 1 of the year. And no provision for clawback if you terminate your employment before the end of the year. So when you forfeit due to overestimating the total, it does not go to the IRS, but your company. But the upside is the funds being available on day 1, with you having to wait until the next tax filing rolls around.

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> no provision for clawback

Unless you're planning on quitting jobs mid year every year I wouldn't really call that an advantage. On all other years you either end up buying piles of shit you don't need just to not lose your FSA dollars you gambled that you would use but didn't, or end up underestimating your medical bills. It's such a broken system that one even has to make guesses like this. There is no need to make people guess.

> funds being available on day 1

Most people with FSAs have higher disposable income so this isn't really an advantage either. Lower income folks typically have HSAs instead.

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Yes. Gambling goes a long way. I just recommended Natasha Dow Schüll and Addiction by Design.

That leads us to BJ Fogg's Persuasive Design Lab at Stanford and the addictive software design.

Tobacco industry owners figured out their time's out and bought food stock and put their addiction department to design food to be addictive.

Where should we head next?

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Obviously “AI”
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Revolution.
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Hope you're including all the state governments and their lotteries in this assessment.
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The incentives driving state lotteries are not nearly as strong as those driving private companies like Draft Kings but yeah not great either.

Used to work at 7-Eleven and we would have people come in and out for hours on end pouring money into scratch tickets.

State lotteries are just a regressive tax targeting the poor.

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> State lotteries are just a regressive tax targeting the poor.

As bad as the odds are, the lottery is still the best chance most players will ever have to be millionaires

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To be a millionaire, maybe, but a $300/month scrather habit over 20 years, in a 401k that's just the SP 500 gets you a quarter million dollars, which isn't nothing to retire on, vs approximately $0 from scratchers.
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Dude no offense but you must be vastly overestimating how many people can save $300 a month. We're talking about people buying couple lottery tickets a month.
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> We're talking about people buying couple lottery tickets a month

Those people do not have a gambling problem, though. They are dropping a few bucks a month to buy a daydream. It could be worse, they could be spending 10x that on Starbucks.

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That's the problem though. I know many people who can't save $300/month, but easily spend that much in consumables, scratchers, alcohol, drugs, etc. On the subject of gambling addiction, $300/month by someone who can't afford it absolutely happens. Go to a GA meeting sometime. They get their paycheck, gamble it away, and then don't have money for rent. Unrestricted gambling is the devil and will be the downfall of America. I'm not one for "shoulds", but there should be something like an accredited gambler law, where you're not allowed to gamble more than 1/3rd your paycheck except in certain circumstances.
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> there should be something like an accredited gambler law, where you're not allowed to gamble more than 1/3rd your paycheck except in certain circumstances.

What would that look like? Would gamblers have to send copies of their pay stubs or bank statements to every casino or gas station they visit and every gambling app they use? I'd be happy if we focused on restricting the most harmful actions of the companies who profit from the people they turned into addicts. No more online sports betting. No more adverting for gambling. No more targeting children with gambling in video games that accept real money for anything. No more using AI or surveillance to detect and target addicts.

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Payday loan places usually look at paystubs before extending a loan, so all I'm suggesting is places where you can gamble have to implement the same technology. The restrictions you mention seem harder to pass under a banner of "but muh freedom".
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So we're in agreement. Those people didn't have $300 to save on anything to begin with, they just spent it anyway at the expense of other needs.
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At least those often fund things like state education so, over time, the pool of victims is maybe lessened by the success of the program? Maybe?

(I am not defending state lotteries, but I do think there's some distinction to be made between "we actively exploit people to maximize our profits for our own sakes" and "we regulate the passive exploitation of people to supplement taxes in a regressive manner." Or something. I dunno, maybe somebody has more elaborate thoughts on this to share.)

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In many places where gambling is banned, there is still gambling. And in places where it's legalized, it can (in theory) be effectively regulated (if there's political will, which is difficult to muster sometimes). And say what you will about lotteries, but it's far easier to blow your life savings at casinos and with sports betting than buying a bunch of lottery tickets.
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Permit lotteries. Ban lottery advertising. A moral government shouldn't advertise products known to be harmful to the public.
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Can we just ban all advertising except for word of mouth (but including fake word of mouth)?
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I'd be happy to stop billboards, other large public displays and those shitty coro-plast ones that jerks put next to the slip road telling me they pay cash for houses or have some magical mosquito treatment. Start there and work our way up?
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yes you can enjoy the free speech you want and other people can't tell us more great one
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Individual humans get free speech, not corporations.
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Sports betting apps are so “gamified” now that many people don’t stand a chance. They’ve made a bleeding edge addiction platform
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See nature preserves that are funded by regulated big game hunting of the preserved nature.

It's a fun moral question. At what point do you give up trying to make someone/a population healthier and say "well if you're going to be this way, we might as well get some use out of you"?

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And the legal option makes it less likely that organized crime will jump in to offer the service.

(To me, it seems) The same people who screamed to legalize weed a few years ago are vehemently against alcohol and gambling.

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"we regulate the passive exploitation of people to supplement taxes in a regressive manner."

I was convinced by this for a full 30 seconds before I realized there are millions of advertisements for the state lotteries. They aren't just regulating a market that will exist with or without the state, they are actively promoting and encouraging it

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Can only speak for Pennsylvania, where I live, but before the lottery there were numbers games run by organized crime. At least with a state-run lottery they're a bit more honest about how you're getting screwed and they can tax the winnings.
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> At least those often fund things like state education so, over time, the pool of victims is maybe lessened by the success of the program? Maybe?

You have some numbers to check.

(“Elaborate thoughts” aren’t needed here - are more people spending less on the lottery? where does each state spend the money?)

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I've got plenty of negative things to say about state government lotteries, but the ones I'm familiar with are structured in less predatory ways. It's hard to spend thousands of dollars on lottery tickets, and impossible to do so in a way that won't feel obviously stupid, especially since you can't buy them on your phone.
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You can buy them on your phone in some states, e.g. Georgia. Their "scratch offs" look just like slot machines and give the same lovely dopamine spikes; used to drop $100 in every couple months when I just needed happy brain chemicals.
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especially since you can't buy them on your phone

Yet

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Meta, ByteDance, ...
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The problem is, some humans seem to be consistently drawn towards products or services that fit that description.

In the 1980s, if you wanted to gamble in my city, you went to a gambling den operated by the Civella crime family. If you got caught in a police raid, your life was ruined. If you got behind on your debts, the mob might take it out of you, literally. These were known risks, but people did it anyways.

Then, in the 1990s, there was a change in the casino gaming laws. Casinos opened with harm reduction measures in place. You can absolutely destroy your finances for life in one, but there are ways out.

These apps need regulation like in-person gambling has. Whatever they currently have, it's not enough.

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It isn't inherently addictive. Gambling addiction is significantly less common than alcohol addiction, and has no properties that make it inherently addictive to someone who is not predisposed towards that addiction (unlike drugs, for example, which are inherently addictive to all humans).

Some slot machines/casino games are designed to appeal to problem gamblers. DK and co, however, do not design these games, and state regulators do already control aspects of their design. For online operators, this doesn't represent most of their revenue and, I suspect, most would be quite happy not to provide these products.

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I've seen this "it only affects problem gamblers" thing so much that I suspect it's an intentional strategy to shift blame that takes advantage of people's natural tendency to believe the just world fallacy (bad things only happen to bad people).
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Nobody's life is ruined by gambling unless they've made a bunch of irresponsible decisions. Bad things certainly happen to good people, but problem-gambling is self inflicted.
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Gambling is absolutely inherently addictive as it's essentially perfectly paired with your brains reward system and hijacks it. There's literally dopamine cycle and tolerance happening. And when compounded by algorithms and notifications which are designed to amplify this even further I'm not sure how you can think it's not inherently addictive.
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> unlike drugs, for example, which are inherently addictive to all humans

Define "drugs". Alcohol is a drug. Most users aren't addicts. So is tobacco. Most users are addicts. Cannabis? More like alcohol than tobacco in terms of addictiveness.

There may be some selection bias. Smoking tobacco is an unpleasant sensation. There's no reason to do it other than the addiction and the effects on your brain chemistry afterwards. Whereas many alcoholic drinks taste great in their own right and would be consumed even if they had no chemical effects.

I suspect gambling is like alcohol or cannabis. Engaging in it affects brain chemistry. For some people that's addictive. Most people are able to enjoy the activity without being hooked.

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>Smoking tobacco is an unpleasant sensation.

I disagree but maybe I’m just addicted.

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I stopped smoking 15-20 years back and still remember it fondly. It is definitely a pleasant, if smelly, experience.
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There’s no “maybe” about it.
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As a former smoker (I started and quit twice), I strongly disagree that "Smoking tobacco is an unpleasant sensation."

It's terrible for your health, it's "burning money", it literally makes you stink, it makes you winded walking up stairs, and is generally terrible.

But the little head rush you get starting the day with a coffee and a cigarette feels great.

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> But the little head rush you get starting the day with a coffee and a cigarette feels great.

That's the effect on brain chemistry I referred to.

Do you actually enjoy the smoke in your mouth, burning your eyes and lungs?

A cold beer on a hot day is refreshing just for its temperature alone. A fruity cocktail tastes good because sugar tastes good. What's enjoyable about the physical sensations produced by smoke?

I mean maybe we're arguing semantics, because the pleasure of eating sugar is possibly also an alteration of brain chemistry. But there is a difference.

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Most people don't actually like the taste of alcoholic drinks when they first try them as a teenager.

The reason you like the taste of beer is in large part because your brain has learned to associate that taste with good things happening (the alcohol feeling).

Same with coffee, it's bitter, objectively should taste bad, but you learn to like it.

It's the same process

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> The reason you like the taste of beer is in large part because your brain has learned to associate that taste with good things happening (the alcohol feeling).

Explain the popularity of non-alcoholic beer.

> Same with coffee, it's bitter, objectively should taste bad

Many fruits, vegetables, and foods (cheeses, unsweetened chocolate) are naturally bitter and widely enjoyed, even though they don't give you a high.

People also enjoy bitter caffeine-free herbal teas.

> Most people don't actually like the taste of alcoholic drinks when they first try them as a teenager.

Many children don't like vegetables either. Adults more often do. Our tastes change as we grow older.

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As a former smoker (quit in 2009), I absolutely LOVED smoking. The whole thing. Opening the pack, packing it down, pulling out the cigarette, lighting it, the first drag filling my lungs, the fullness in my chest. The only thing I didn't like was that it made me smell bad. When I started a job where I was working close to people and the smell made me insecure, I decided to quit. I still miss the ritual.

Anyone who has quit smoking will tell you that the habit is the hardest part about quitting, not the physical addiction.

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> Do you actually enjoy the smoke in your mouth, burning your eyes and lungs?

Many years ago when I smoked - yup, sure did. I loved the entire experience, except maybe going outside in the middle of winter.

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The real number we want evaluate is "what percent of the revenue comes from people experiencing significant negative consequences from the product."

For alcohol that number is something like 2/3 revenue from the top 10% of drinkers, who drink an order of magnitude more than the decile below them. I doubt gambling is very different but if you have more info I'm happy to hear it.

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Gambling is proven to be addictive in the same way many other things are, and the harm of severe addiction is comparable to that of the worst drugs. It's very common for severe gambling addicts to lose everything they have, to lose everything they love, to never psychologically recover, to kill themselves.
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Addictions spontaneously can turn on. For me, it was age 27. To classify people as inherently susceptible vs not is not accurate
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