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Google has TPUs, a frontier model, a completely separate and lucrative revenue stream they can call on at will, and teams working on multiple different language modeling strategies simultaneously. Did I mention the vast and ominous data centers that already serve a significant fraction of the internet? If that ain't a moat, then what exactly is a moat?
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Then why have they been lagging behind OpenAI and Anthropic for most of the last few years, and only briefly been at the frontier?
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> Then why have they been lagging behind OpenAI and Anthropic

Because they're not desperate. Slow and steady wins the race, at this rate all Google has to do is wait for OpenAI and Anthropic to exhaust themselves on aggressive training, then they can casually amble along right past them.

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Also because they are Google. Google being Google: unreliable (they could kill a product anytime), too much of a platform risk (all products in a single place, get banned and lose the company), lack of support unless you really pay a big bill (into the 7 figures), among other… things.
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> Then why have they been lagging behind OpenAI and Anthropic for most of the last few years, and only briefly been at the frontier?

One possible explanation: because Google is a little bit more frugal and focuses on how to make providing AI models financially feasible - combined with some willingness to burn money so that they don't strongly fall behind on their AI models.

On the other hand, OpenAI and Anthropic at least formerly concentrated on building and providing the best models that they could with concerns about financial feasibility taking a backseat.

Just to be clear: I do have the impression that by now (likely because of pressure from investors) OpenAI and Anthropic take these financial concerns more seriously, but nevertheless Google's vs OpenAI's/Anthropic's "DNAs" concerning on what to focus on differ.

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And also Google is public listed company and the other two (for now) are private. I think that fact does have a strong bearing on how they operate.
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> Google is a little bit more frugal and focuses on how to make providing AI models financially feasible

There’s no magic there. You get an account executive and a call with a systems architect to find out what you’re doing.

Clouds gonna cloud, this is the reason they rolled deepmind into gcp and arguably the inverse is true, the labs are trying to become clouds

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> because Google is a little bit more frugal and focuses on how to make providing AI models financially feasible

That feels right. It's not as if they've been missing out on great profits.

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> Then why have they been lagging behind OpenAI and Anthropic for most of the last few years, and only briefly been at the frontier?

Because it's not an existential battle for Google. If OAI or Anthropic disappear from the absolute frontier for ~8 months the news cycle and churn will diminish them to the second rate. Google is processing near 4 quadrillion tokens every month, that's - I'm sure - significantly more than OAI or Anthropic, because Google is interested more so in their flash models and getting these competitive, which they are.

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It’s just a division in their cloud offering that’s what AI is
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Lagging by what metric exactly? Is Toyota lagging behind McLaren? (company vs company)
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From a business perspective a frontier model does not make much sense anymore if you are not a startup. Neither for Amazon, nor for Google. Their clouds need models that are fast and perform well in their agent frameworks nothing were a frontier model excels at.

Most Google products even use flash lite underneath, so their frontier model is mostly used for distillation.

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> From a business perspective a frontier model does not make much sense anymore if you are not a startup. Neither for Amazon, nor for Google. Their clouds need models that are fast and perform well in their agent frameworks nothing w[h]ere a frontier model excels at.

A good consideration; just one point from my side: as far as I am aware (but I may be wrong), Gemini is not known to perform well in an agentic framework.

This is no contradiction to your other claims, quite the opposite: perhaps (or even likely) Google wants to avoid that their models become a commodity in some (agentic?) application where the middleman who actually writes this application gets a disproportionate of the money that the customer of the application pays for it.

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> A good consideration; just one point from my side: as far as I am aware (but I may be wrong), Gemini is not known to perform well in an agentic framework.

I used it for a month over the summer, right before they were going through the migration to antigravity. It was a fine workhorse IMO, no complaints from me.

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Alphabet issued a very oversubscribed 100-year bond with 6.1% yield earlier this year to raise capital for datacenter expension.

Meanwhile, Anthropic/OpenAI will struggle to survive the next 24 months on their current trajectory.

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So you don't know why they've been behind?
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Could it just be that Demis was checked out of the race and they lacked leadership?
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Demis wants to focus on scientific endeavors. He was probably not the right person to focus on consumer apps.
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Don't forget the training data! Legal copies of all the books in the world, the entire web scraped, and all of YouTube.
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I don't think that other revenue stream is completely separate. It weighs on them as they need to think about tradeoffs. Classical search is going away sooner or later so they need to replace that with AI powered search.

Data centers are important but a few others also has them: Amazon, Microsoft, Meta. SpaceX will likely be in/at the top I AI dedicated precessing power in 2027 as well.

I don't see the moat. I see a company with a lot of other commitments that is not the best at delivering consumer facing products. They have some good cards but so do others.

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> Nobody has a moat.

Custom hardware, data centers, huge cash reserves, deep/broad talent pool, and non-AI customer base are all huge advantages if not moats.

Google, Microsoft, or Amazon are more likely to be the AI leaders than OpenAI or Anthropic.

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> Google, Microsoft, or Amazon are more likely to be the AI leaders than OpenAI or Anthropic.

If not now, then when will these companies be AI leaders?

Even Google, with its staggering advantages in cash, compute, real estate, training data, and having basically invented the field only manages to briefly claim a 1-2 week lead once or twice a year.

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The financials for Anthropic and OpenAI are likely borderline suicidal, google and co are publicly traded. Moreover, all innovations downstream to them dont they? Why not just stay slightly behind, especially given many have stake in those other companies?
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[delayed]
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There are many companies that have data centers. They are conceptually easy to build. An ASIC is difficult enough that if you make one someone will leapfrog you while you are still making it (at least so far), though once you have one your costs will be enough lower than the competition that you can perhaps undercut them.
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True, but have other hyperscalers caught up to Google's AI data centers?: fully liquid cooled, torus networking(?), 100,000+ TPUs interconnected, etc.

Google is already on gen 8 of its TPUs and is certainly already working on the next version or two.

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If Moore's law continues, then in less than 10 years today's state of the art model will be able to run on a cell phone. How much smarter do we actually need AI to be? Would it still require datacenters and custom hardware?
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Moore's law stalled ~2015. Unfortunately, no way current models will run on the <100W thermal budget of a cell phone. Printing the weights directly into a chip would help efficiency a lot, but not enough.
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Is it conceivable that in 10 years time we’ll have 7B models that have the same level performance as modern frontier ones?
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In all likelihood in a few years we'll get ~200-400bA~4-6 MoE models that are on chip, and they'll be better than the current frontier.
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They probably said the same thing about social media back in the day.

I'm sure the thinking out there, and hence investment, is all about how to tether the user to the most addictive, network-effected, incredibly deep, server-side, moat-able version of AI possible.

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> Nobody has a moat except nvidia

For now, for cloud training. but for consumers, nvidia vs amd reasonably close - the moat there is thin and shrinking. I suspect AMD will surprise us. nvidia has no motes in china, which may be a new source of (gpu) chip design. Huawei's Ascend 910C is about a generation behind... again: for now.

point is: moats dry up. I see nvidia's shrinking as a real possibility.

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China will always be generations behind until they crack domestic EUV
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> China will always be generations behind until they crack domestic EUV

Are you sure?

--

China Just Built What TSMC Said Was Impossible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk-w279ESHg

--

China Just Built What ASML Feared Most

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiPgSm62fiM

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Do you think that they won't?
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The whole winner-take-all idea seems entirely based around Singularity/Rationalism and would require massive advances that we probably aren't close to at all.
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Yeah, it kind of seems like we haven't gotten to the "head start" he's referring to yet.
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My personal theory is (assuming there really is no moat) whoever starts the latest with developing AI models might actually win as they should be able to develop a competitive product with significant less resources and initial investment resulting in a higher ROI. AI might even become a commodity.
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This is my secret hope for Europe!
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Given that the infrastructure won't be a moat and will become a commodity.
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Based on historical developments the cost of compute will go down again eventually, decreasing the cost of training AI models of the same quality as today even further. That part is what I would be the most certain about.
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That’s what we see in China
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It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future
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Even Google itself stated (internally at least) that nobody has a moat https://newsletter.semianalysis.com/p/google-we-have-no-moat...
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Wasnt it just some dude writing a doc? That's hardly a Google (The Company)'s position.
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If anyone other than NVIDIA has a moat, they for sure never talk about it
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It's even worse, we are crossing over into the realm of religion. The article against GML 5.3 is the equivalent of a Papal excommunication.
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The article presented facts and data. If that's a problem for you, that sounds more faith-based than whatever Anthropic is doing.
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which article? have not seen this one

---

maybe it's this Anthropic post on GLM?

https://www.anthropic.com/research/glm-5-3-and-the-spread-of...

> Governments should conduct safety testing on sufficiently capable AI models, including successors to GLM-5.3. Without high-quality evaluations from independent sources, the impact of these capabilities might not become fully clear to model developers until it is too late. As AI developers across the world build increasingly capable open-weight models, we hope they work to appropriately safeguard these capabilities and prevent misuse.

I for one do not think my government is up to the task of designing or implementing such a system

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It doesn't need to. It can use your cash to pay the people who are. Those in power like it more that way.
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You say that because the 'most' existing models have done is hack governments and companies. Can't you think of worse things a model could do; accidentally or by instruction?
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help people with suicide and school shootings like ChatGPT already has

OpenAi is alledged to have been monitoring these internally and not contacting authorities. Lawsuits have been filed, I see gross negligence without the gory details

I have for more concerns around human-chatbot maladies than I do around the cyber security stuff. For example, why hack grandma when you can get her to do something willingly through impersonation. How do we prove authenticity in a post truth world?

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> The famous theory of Dario Amodei was that AI was this winner-takes-all field where the first team to get a head start would never cede ground back.

This is the kind of story that ones tells to investors to justify the huge amount of cash burn. :-)

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I'm not sure it's wrong. This all feels a bit dotcommy to me.

I think many/most of the players will crash and burn, and the ones that are left will divide the world.

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The problem is twofold. One, even a monopoly AI provider wouldn't have pricing power against its suppliers. Its suppliers are energy, semiconductors, and real estate. Semiconductors maybe they could get some leverage on but energy and real estate have plenty of other buyers. Two, there's still no evidence of a runaway scenario (ie a small lead turns into a big lead over time) and there's still no evidence that there's some resource that you can deny everyone else that they can't build your product also. You can't hoard energy, compute, memory, data, human talent, or customers.

The net effect is that the most likely scenario is if one big lab fails, they will likely all fail. Their revenues are all correlated.

To go to your dotcom comparison, the winner will be the ones picking through the assets that were written down by orders of magnitude and trying new products with the technology until one sticks to the wall. But I don't know if a dramatic crash is guaranteed either.

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> The problem is twofold. One, even a monopoly AI provider wouldn't have pricing power against its suppliers. Its suppliers are energy, semiconductors, and real estate. Semiconductors maybe they could get some leverage on but energy and real estate have plenty of other buyers.

Concerning the leverage on energy and real estate: don't forget that the AI companies have quite a lot of choice where to build their data centers. So AI companies have lots of opportunities to play several parties off against each other (in particular also for real estate and energy).

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"but it can stay there so long as the balance sheet doesn't deteriorate."

Uhm, what? LOL.

People dont value firms based on balance sheets fella. Have you taken a basic valuation class?

Tesla is a nice stock for traders - they like the volatility. Nobody holds Tesla as stock for investing. If you were to truly value it on an intrinsic value basis you'd have to bring in failure risk.

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I suspect this is going to end up like most services provided e.g. cloud stuff, balkanized between a couple major players and an assortment of DIY or less popular options if you don't like those ecosystems, plus some UX/DX focused wrappers that use the big players under the hood.

I think that would be a pretty satisfactory outcome compared to one hypercompany consuming trillions of dollars of the world economy.

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“Divide the world” sounds ominous. Here’s another scenario to consider:

Internet access is not really unlimited, but for many people with fiber at home, it effectively is and we pay a flat rate.

Perhaps by the end of next year, most programmers will stop thinking about metered access for AI? For many people, the cheaper models (about as good as today’s frontier models) will be good enough.

Which might sound good, but the downside is that it will also be easier to build an AI botnet without the users paying for it noticing. Particularly when people are running AI inference on their own hardware.

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Hardware is still insanely hard to get a hold of, and the stuff that's being built doesn't really work for home use. Maybe if it crashes Nvidia will adjust the hardware flow.

My guess is even if the AI market busts there is still a massive demand for hardware as models are solving all kind of problems now.

But ya, lots of hardware everywhere not managed well is how you get sovereign AI.

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Or, like airlines, the ones that are left will have great technology but be not so great from a business and financial perspective. To me AI seems like a commodity service.
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Like airlines but starting off with hundreds of billions of dollars of obligations and debt
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THe problem with analogies is that they are imperfect.

I would argue those who already rule the world, will continue to do so.

What happens to OAI and Anthropic? No idea, probs go bust. Google just has to offer a half-decent offering in the long run and have a cost-advantage and it'll eventually knock OAI and Anthropic out as firms figure out what combination of models they want to be best for their economics and generating returns. Enterprises trust google over OAI and Anthropic. A clear signal of this was the Apple deal.

Dont forget those sweet returns fellas! CEO's are hired to make the owners wealthier. That is not gone.

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I guess if one of them hits singularity, it could in theory just wipe out all the rest, seeing how they keep escaping and hacking into other systems :)
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> I guess if one of them hits singularity, it could in theory just wipe out all the rest

The story that some AI company might reach singularity and then "everything will be different" is another science-fiction story that executives of AI companies love to tell to justify the staggering amount of necessary investments and cash burn. :-)

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I find it quite unique how many people buy into this. Its the worlds most blatant conflict of interest, I dont even know why Sam and Dario bother doing interviews
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And before him, Altman was explaining very calmly that no company could ever compete with OpenAI.
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I think some in the AI industry drank their own Kool-Aid. They believed that if they had the best model and the most compute, they could tell the model, "Make a better model." And it would, and the next one could make its replacement, and so on.

So far, that's not exactly how it's played out. Humans are still necessary for the leaps in capability or efficiency. A model can grind on a problem to eke out the most performance, and models can synthesize data and iterate on various techniques to find the optimal combination. But, seems like humans still have to provide the real thinking, and the talent and drive for doing that is not concentrated in one company or city or even one country. And, (surprisingly) a lot of the people involved are in it for advancing the field more than making another billion dollars, so they're publishing their research.

So, yeah, the moat isn't deep. Even the compute moat, that OpenAI, Musk, and a bunch of other also-rans (like Oracle) bet the farm on, isn't really panning out. The Chinese makers just spent their effort on making models vastly more efficient, since they couldn't do anything about having an order of magnitude less compute available.

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But that's the whole point of the singularity. Right now the models use a lot of human effort and ingenuity to improve the models, but about a year ago it was 100% human. We'll see in another year, but if this pace continues I doubt there will be more than a handful of people who can contribute more than the models.
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> I think some in the AI industry drank their own Kool-Aid. They believed that if they had the best model and the most compute, they could tell the model, "Make a better model." And it would, and the next one could make its replacement, and so on.

They're not there yet. Once they get there, that's literally the definition of Singularity.

But they are getting closer. Recursive Self-Improvement used to be a phrase people mocked LessWrong crowd for using and worrying about, now it's something both OpenAI and Anthropic already publicly admitted not only to pursue, but to already be benefiting from.

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Sure, it's happening...but, is IT happening? By that, I mean, we can see that the models are able to iterate at a pace and scale that humans can't match, and that provides gains in model performance and efficiency. But, humans are still needed in the loop, and not just because it's necessary for safety/alignment reasons. I don't think any significant discovery has been made by models on their own, and I don't know that LLMs will ever have the capacity to invent. They can synthesize from known data amazingly well, and since they know everything "known data" is extremely broad. But, the leaps, so far, have all come from humans.

So far, I don't think the models are capable of running away on their own. Of course, it would be playing with fire to not at least consider the risks of such a runaway scenario and build in safeguards against it. But, there is no model that can build a better model on its own, thus far, to the best of my knowledge (which is far more limited than the models, so maybe I should ask them).

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Recursive Self-Improvement isn't instant, it starts slow and accelerates.

It starts with what they already claim to be doing - increasingly relying on existing models in non-trivial work related to training, evaluating and optimizing the next, more capable generation of models. As long as the proportion of work keeps shifting towards agents doing more and more of it, and humans less and less, that's RSI at play.

It may be that it turns out LLMs lack some fundamental level of judgement and it plateaus, but frankly I find this notion absurd; LLMs already show better judgement than most people. The alternative is, at some point LLMs will show the ability to futz their way into improvement of the next generation of models even without humans in the loop - even if much less efficient at first, if generation N+1 is more capable than generation N, it'll either take off or burn out.

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Those people have a lot of overlap with the LessWrong crowd. They do not have RSI now and probably never will
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They absolutely do, unless you believe they are lying about the fact they're using current generation models extensively to develop the next generation of their models.
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The companies whose insane valuation is based on accomplishing thing X say they’re getting closer to accomplishing thing X?

At least they’re led by trustworthy and honest people or we’d need to take their claims with some dose of skepticism.

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Is it recursive self improvement if Claude Code writes your pytorch for you?
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If the point of that pytorch is to improve the next generation of Claude, then yes, absolutely.
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I just find this unlikely personally, think about the great research that's happening in the open source world, I'm sure inside anthropic + openai they've also made a bunch of discoveries and improvements (and I'd guess way more due to them attracting the best talent + the better internal models they have)
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Whoever gets to RSI first “wins” but also maybe ends life on earth. The incentives have never been worse.
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Maybe. Or maybe having the best AI model on the planet becomes like having the best super computer on the planet. Useful for some niche stuff, but not too useful in terms of people's daily lives or what is used in business.
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Why does your outcome make any sense?

Already businesses that have more compute and access to data seem to eat the world around them. If, and ya its and if, we can make something that self learns into RSI it's not looking like any business that came before this.

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RSI being science fiction so far.

Whoever builds the deathstar wins!

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I'm not necessarily defending this obvious marketing speak but maybe the "starting point" was wider than assumed. So far, nobody has caught up to US and Chinese labs for example despite lots of funding in Europe. This is also despite abundant in-depth research papers being published alongside open source code and weights by some Chinese labs
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There is not really much funding in Europe. At least not for start-ups. There is simply not enough compute in Europe.
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Europe doesn’t even have cheap electricity
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The US companies still have trillion dollar valuations like there is a monopoly. There just isn't one. They are all within a few percent of each other on the benchmarks.

The slightly lower Chinese open models are good enough for almost everything, too, and much cheaper. Like with humans there is plenty of employment for people with below genius level IQ's.

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I feel like the frontier labs are going to serve fast/lower intelligence models at a better per token cost than the open chinese models. You're telling me that in the long run, you're going to self-host your own ai infra for cheaper than google can serve it to you? I don't really buy it. I think the dedicated AI data centers are going to serve AI at a lower marginal cost than random businesses self-hosting, and then it's a question of how much of that margin they can capture.
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Agree entirely but that's the point, if it's a margin knife-fight with marginal product differentiation/pricing power nobody is going to be making bank.
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If they have to recoup training costs then they don't have much choice
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Is there a dividing line between good enough and best in class capabilities? It's blurry from where I stand. Will model makers cede ground or is there a market making moment up for grabs (singularity)?
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> Like with humans there is plenty of employment for people with below genius level IQ's.

Not if the genius level IQs take the market share.

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I think that scenario only naively made sense if technical knowledge was entirely proprietary and talent was guarded with severe non-competes and NDAs

And Chinese labs openly publishing so much of their methodology destroyed any hope, which was inevitable

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> And Chinese labs openly publishing so much of their methodology destroyed any hope, which was inevitable

I think the secrecy doesn't make sense. People swap jobs between labs so I'd say the big players can' really keep secrets for long, and any secret sauce advantage gets incorporated by competitors in a major product cycle at most.

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Seems like learning rate velocty may be the ultimate moat
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I have never understood the whole "this is a winner take all game" mentality - the sheer size of the pie is so great that from a purely rational standpoint companies should just be trying to productively get a slice of it and be profitable. winner-take-all is just greed/capitalism run amok, where it is not enough to be profitable, you have to own the entire market (and presumably extract rents)
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It’s like the supposed first mover advantage OpenAI believed they had. In practice it’s almost always more like a first mover massive tax, and companies coming afterwards benefit from your discovery of a market, publicity, and everything else that has already been validated
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Isn't the important takeaway here that Gemini 4 is not released and has no planned release date?

This is marketing from Google, not a competitive offering

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Nobody has a moat so long as employees can move between companies
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I feel his theory depends on the premise that access to pure compute would the be the determining factor of success. Not the case
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Was Dario's company winning at that point in time by any chance?
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The present leapfrogging is not a contraindication because companies are not necessarily releasing their best models; we know they have smarter internal models. Furthermore, humans are still involved in model creation. Human involvement is expected to decrease over time, and when model iteration is completely automated, progress will happen at the machine's pace, leading to runaway intelligence, barring any ceilings.
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AI is a commodity. One that is showing to be more readily commoditized than most has anticipated. As of now, the only moats are the financing for the hardware to run it and the hardware vendors themselves - with the latter largely not yet a commodity because of ecosystem lock and a limited capacity of the most advanced fabs in the world.
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