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> But here's a CEO saying he's going to make sure prices stay high enough, long enough that you can spin up a competitor

2 years is not remotely enough time to spin up a competitor. It's not even enough time for a current leading competitor to spin up another fab.

If you are a newcomer you are talking a decade or more before mass production. If you are HK Hynix perhaps 5 years or so.

The majors all have large fabs under construction, but the majority of new production from those facilities won't be coming fully on-line until 2028 at the earliest. Even from the date of first wafer shipped most of these facilities take 6-12mo to reach mass production level output.

Chinese DRAM is interesting only because they started building capacity (expertise) a decade ago. Only now are the expected to have any material impact on the total volume of the market. And if they want to gain even more market share, they will be under the same ~5 years to spin up a brand new fabrication plant. Perhaps a bit less because they are China, but still multiple years.

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And it's important to point out how long these fabs have been under construction.

Micron started building it's new fab in 2022. They are expecting their first chips to be out by 2027 (maybe). The projected cost, $50B.

This is a fundamental problem which the free market cannot handle. It takes multiple years and billions for competitors to spin up. No sane bank or business person would try and get into cutting edge memory fabrication. That means the players we have are the players we'll likely always have (With MAYBE china entering the arena).

The free market only works when the required upfront capital for a new player to enter a business is relatively low. In industries where the players are static or shrinking, you have a free market failure.

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correct, which is why industrial policy is important.
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> 2 years is not remotely enough time to spin up a competitor. It's not even enough time for a current leading competitor to spin up another fab.

But it is enough time for customers to consider competitors they may have avoided before.

So maybe their priced-out customers give Chinese DRAM a serious look, make some compromises, and never go back to Micron.

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Then there is risk; who is to say that the current demand will be around in five to ten years by the time you ramp up.
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Imagine being the sucker to go and do a big capex build out for a hypothetical demand in two years. Have fun explaining that to the investors who supported you. Also you probably need 5 years to cover your expenses at whatever the current costs are. If the volatile prices collapse you are in a world of hurt.

Someone will certainly take this bet - but it is a high risk one.

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> But here's a CEO saying he's going to make sure prices stay high enough, long enough that you can spin up a competitor

Where does he say he's going to make sure prices stay high?

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"We will produce as many Oreo's as we can, but soon Oreo supply will be much tighter than ever before"

- Oreo CEO, suggesting you to buy every Oreo you can get

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Micron is a trillion dollar company. The CEO would never say something like that directly. He's talking in the "business dialect" of English and you have to read between the lines a bit.
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The CEO is saying nothing that everyone who analyzes the situation and knows at least something about semiconductor production wouldn't say. Demand is way up, supply cannot keep up, it will take some time to increase supply.

Micron is working on increasing that supply. The started building a massive fab for DRAM in 2022 in Idaho. It should start production in 2027. They started a second massive fab for DRAM next to it in 2023 with production scheduled for 2028.

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This is the info that people should be looking at. Building these facilities takes time. I'm guessing they are thinking that demand is not going to decline anytime soon to justify this buildout. EDIT both SKHynix and Samsung are also expanding their DRAM production lines and new plants. So they are all working on adding new capacity.
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Not to be snarky, but the CEO is saying that the supply will be tight for years. I know Econ 101 is over simplified but I do recall that when you reduce supply and demand stays constant, or increases, the price goes up.
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I also recall some Econ 101, but I seem to recall a little but more than you since I also recall that the price goes up when the supply stays constant or even increases but the demand increases faster than the supply increases.

The CEO is saying that that is the situation we are in.

Demand has increased massively over a short time. Supply cannot increase as rapidly because for big demand increases it involves building new factories and equipment which takes significant time.

The CEO says that their new stuff will start coming online in 2028 but they can't forecast when supply will catch up.

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> but I seem to recall a little but more than you

or less, as you seem to forget what this whole discussion is about.

If they dont make sure the prices dont go up, they go up.

Once theyre up, and expected to stay up for the foreseeable future, competitors see a gigantic opportunity. Suddenly, the large amount of investment necessary to the ball rolling is worth it.

Once this opportunity is taken advantage of, the original market position of the company being able to freely set whatever price they wanted is eroded forever -- and in this particular case: it opens them up to being out-competed by the new competitor(s).

In this case those will will likely be coming out of china and be state backed, so theyll likely operate at a loss for maximum damage to get as much of the market as they can get.

in 5 years, Micron is likely going to go cry for state support to socialize their upcoming losses.

and before you say "but there are other competitors already": you should be aware that theyve previously been convicted of running a cartel. And the way theyve been behaving is exactly how they were behaving back then. While unproven, it is more then just likely that theyre still price fixing (and have been for years)

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I'm curious what you think they could do to make sure prices don't up?
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dont increase the price of the product?

the price didnt just go up for consumers, they themselves have deeply dipped into the opportunity to maximize profits.

its so hilariously outlandish that eg SK Hynix has to pay out >$450k to union employees (per employee - not in total!) because they have a contract that a percentage of profits get shared as a bonus across the company. this payout is usually not particularly high.

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Would you prefer the money goes to middlemen? When supply is constrained and the manufacturer doesn't price to match, all that happens is scalping. Even if the memory die manufacturers gave away their products for free it wouldn't budge consumer RAM prices in this market environment.
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youre taking a very consumer oriented look, while we're explicitly talking about the perspective of the producer in this thread.

the consumer price barely matters for the perspective of the company evaluating wherever they can enter the market, because thats just a tiny fraction of it. And the largest piece of the market buys directly from the producer, SK Hynex, Samsung and Micron.

For consumers wanting to buy RAM sticks the difference is academic, i give you that. But for the capital that decides wherever to invest millions if not billions into getting a factory up and running - the price they can set for the b2b sales is the more important factor.

If it wasnt already proven to be basically whatever number they feel like setting... the opportunity would be a lot less obvious.

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Large tech companies like cloudflare are spending developer hours lowering memory usage because they feel the impact too.

The idea that companies should have priority price controlled access to memory puts us even deeper into a situation where we can never afford local compute ever again.

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For stuff I wrote that I run on my server, I have been converting from Clojure to Rust. Sometimes mechanically, often by hand.

I actually like Clojure more but even with GraalVM AOT it still tends to take significantly more memory than even naive Rust code (e.g. using Clone everywhere). If you’re looking willing to spend time abusing the borrow checker you can often get memory usage down to like 5% of what you’d get out of Java stuff.

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The price is up because demand is way above supply (and will be for a long time because it takes years to expand supply to match the current level of demand).

If the manufacturers decided to keep the price constant that would NOT stop the price that most people pay from going up. It would just mean that the people who managed to buy from the manufacturer before the supply ran out would resell on the secondary market for a giant profit.

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"would resell on the secondary market for a giant profit."

But you've no evidence that that "giant profit" would be more than the increase that the suppliers would apply.

Arbitrage allows the market to find an agreeable price; a middleman arbiter with a warehouse of RAM has an incentive to agree a price with a buyer because he's stuck with that inventory if he doesn't shift it, and he has costs related to financing it.

A supplier has no such incentive, they can just jack the price up and if sales drop off they run the machines at a lower rate, or sack employees. But sales aren't going to drop off, because the baseline for demand has been lifted

Once this "RAM Crisis" is over, what reason would manufacturers have to reduce prices?

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They have to cover their fixed costs somehow. Collusion and cartels only get you so far. OPEC and Mexican drug cartels are still exposed to market pressures.
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> dont increase the price of the product?

Literal empty shelves. And resellers on Ebay making bank.

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Exactly. Demand won't be going down for quite some time, so prices will stay high unless supply goes up. So where is the new competition entering the market?

If there's no competition entering the market, wouldn't that be a clear sign that this is not a free market but effectively a cartel?

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It takes 3-5 years to build a new fab for current generation DRAM.
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> year or two to ramp production

More like 5-10

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What they need to do is all raise prices for 3 years, dump below cost for 4-6 months and repeat.
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Congrats, you just guaranteed that the startup can easily lock in contracts for memory production in order hedge against volatility.
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