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> When children are older, they take care of their parents and grandparents.

This is a core value in many eastern cultures. I'm not trying to put down western cultures - only pointing out a difference - I do not believe it is a core value of western cultures (i'd love to be proven wrong of course).

Also, when children grow up and move away, or immigrate to a different countries, this produces problems to the ageing parents.

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AFAICT this is a value in most cultures in all directions. I think "the west" invented pensions, social security and medicaid (or whatever you call it in your country) so parents nor children had to plan on caring for the elderly when they had trouble working (and with white collar jobs, that may be a long time).

Multi-generational, western (American) guy here: caring for the older generations is a core value to everyone I know and to me. We just don't _have_ to. My mom has money, can drive, owns a nicer house than I do. So, it's really only for 'values' that I check in on her and handyman for her whenever I can. In fact, for the latter, I cause her more problems than I fix.

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Your mom (not you specifically, but the average person's) is being provided for by the collective, ie currently working-age people's pension contributions. She, as a worker, paid taxes in her own working age, and financed stranger's parents' lives, and now the new generation does the same for her. It's a many to many relationship, while the old style arrangement was more point-to-point. The children did the literal manual work to keep their parents fed and cared for, while now they pay some strangers to do it, using their pension.
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This is factually accurate - I agree with the description. But I think this new system makes it sound like the ageing parents only need financial and mechanical help -- (handyman etc.), what about emotional support? No, I don't think phone calls cut it. Humans did not evolve to live far away from their kin.
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Absolutely. Most people don't realise that the biggest problem old people experience is loneliness. My friend, an only child, came back to India from the US, to personally care for his parents once he realised they were too old to care for themselves properly and needed support.
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Nowadays, young people gain experience in being lonely already when young, so they will be a pro at it when old.
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Personal context: I am an American of European descent, with most of my ancestors having arrived between 1880 and 1950 (pretty solidly "Western"). Extended family is broadly well-off enough to not be financially in need in retirement.

Observation: Sooner or later, all of our family's elders have wound up cared for by a mix of children, grandchildren, nieces, and nephews. Even those who didn't have children. We're an ornery bunch, so quite a few stubbornly insisted they didn't need anyone, yet eventually they did. Care often came at an inconvenience to those providing it, but one way or another, in one form or another, care was given. I can only think of one person from my extended family who wasn't cared for by the younger generations in his final years.

Speculation: The average number of children in my extended family hovers around three, and most of us are in a few geographic clusters (not the same city, but still a cluster). Perhaps if the average litter was between one and two, and/or we were more spread apart, we may have slipped into line with that stereotype?

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Western societies aren't behaving the way they do around family and care issues because they have a grand plan, but because they don't have one.

In particular, the public is wildly uneducated about the interdependencies they implicitly rely on and take for granted, until they get old one day and realize the negligence.

The general idea in the US is, you have to prepare for yourself, in the EU the premise is, the state prepares for you. Both are oversimplifications that don't really work more often than people want to admit.

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Most the young people I meet are quite cynical about the future, affordability, the existence of any pension at all, or the retirement age rising above the life expectancy or something like that. But simply there are a million things to be worried about. Like they are also worried about the climate, about AI and jobs, maybe about other things too.
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This isn't about some fundamental East/West attitude difference. From time immemorial it was like that in the West too, the change came with the late 19th century and mainly the 20th century when government took on the role of caretaker with pensions, welfare and various government transfers, reducing interpersonal dependencies, and allowing more atomized lifestyles.
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I don’t see it as a big government intervention that drove the change. I think it was a big change in housing availability and the suburbs. This was driven by WW2 victory and the industrial production machine. Making housing affordable available to small families.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levittown

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The same thing happened also in Europe which didn't have that type of suburbia, nor necessarily that sort of WW2 win. These social changes were a slow ramp, not some single event changing things. It was in part technology, in part state centralization capacity via administration development, in part ideologies and philosophies etc. Both socialism and capitalism pushed against traditional kin and clan structures in favor of universal platforms (markets, or universal co-ownership). But already the Church laid some of the foundations of all this. And then the church also weakened as a slow erosion and social norms were markedly more liberal in e.g. the 19th century than in the 18th and so on.
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It's not really west vs east. It had been a core value in "western" cultures too, and is changing in "eastern" cultures as we have this discussion.

The change seems to have more to do with the atomization of society that industrialization and contemporary capitalism invite. Relational needs get pegged to currency and become transactional, career becomes a necessary way to fund those transactions, and that necessity then supersedes the actual relationships and responsibilities that had traditionally been taken for granted and free from accounting.

It's a death spiral towards alienation that we stumbled into in modernity and need to collectively address, not a cultural divide between east and west.

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Thank you for your contribution, you made me engage with your thoughts. As a German born married to an Indian, I can relate with the points
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That does make some sense to me! Ty

Could you explain these a bit more (or maybe provide a pointer to they mean):

> "atomization of society that industrialization and contemporary capitalism invite."

How & why exactly do they invite atomization?

> "Relational needs get pegged to currency and become transactional... career becomes a necessary way to fund those transactions"

By this do you mean something like: instead of relying on friends and family for interdependece, we pay for services in a formal economy ?

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Not that person but:

> How & why exactly do they invite atomization?

Economies of scale make the commercial services more efficient. Similarly to how my grandma cannot compete in keeping chickens and selling eggs against a huge agricultural corporation, for a working-age person to stay at home and care for their parents is less economical than if this person performs some specialized work at a job, and there are a bunch of other, trained employees taking care of several old people e.g. in a retirement home.

It may have some social functions that get lost, but it gets outcompeted by scalable, specialized, formal-economy alternatives.

Also industrialization made many tasks possible to do alone. With washing machines, microwaves and TV dinners, people can live on their own indefinitely, while this simply wasn't possible before in a farming and manual labor context where you constantly had to ask for and to provide help getting things done. Like building a house, slaughtering a pig, doing field work etc.

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What isn’t mentioned in monideas’ comment is that it is women who do the caring. The change has to do with women being able to not do that. Of course, this might also mean that they might not have a daughter-in-law to take care of them, but if it’s me, I would also choose to avoid that caretaking role.

Assets and income were passed down patrilineally, and hence women were expected to fold into their husband’s family and become the primary caretakers (unless super rich and they had servants).

The problem comes when the government forcefully takes resources from young workers and gives them to old people. You can’t choose independence when young and also choose to depend on someone else. That is trying to have your cake and eat it too, hence all the fretting about unsustainable pension systems around the world.

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The obvious book recommendation here is: Joseph Henrich: The WEIRDest People in the World: How the West Became Psychologically Peculiar and Particularly Prosperous.
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southern europe, small villages.

we take care of our own. It's very much part of our core values.

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To add to what others have noted:

To some extent, yes, it is unfortunate that Western culture has abandoned that cultural value.

However, it's also been incredibly liberating to a great many people.

When it's a cultural value to take care of your parents when they are elderly, to the point of shaming adult children who refuse to do so, it lends itself all too easily to abuse. And there are a lot of abusive parents out there. This is particularly true among queer people, who have only recently (generationally speaking) been able to be out in a widespread manner.

Furthermore, for the current generations of elderly and their children, the chances are higher than ever that the elderly parents have much, much more in the way of resources to take care of themselves than their children have.

The atomization of our society is a genuine problem, and we need to find some good society-level solutions for it. But socially demanding that children care for their parents, no matter how awful those parents were to the children (or still are!) is not something that we should bring back.

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Christianity has always preached and required this mutual support and interdependence. It has an archaic name: "alimentation".

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01312b.htm

But we in the U.S.A. have cast off the chains of interdependence, and adopted the Enlightenment ethos of rugged individualism and consumerism that defines American values. Who needs grandparents, or husbands, or family support when we can train and pay mercenaries to care about us! All praise, glory and power be to our Constitution!

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>no amount of pleading or social engineering can solve this

Isn’t the institution of marriage itself a form of social engineering? I agree that trying to build new social institutions from whole cloth is a huge lift, but at the same time I don’t think it’s impossible to imagine alternative social arrangements that allow for the care of the elderly.

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Marriage is the highest form of social engineering, it is an observed fact that it is the primary driver of the civilizing process in human history.

Its absence and the resultant breakdown is being observed in real-time, it should be no surprise that the degradation of society from its absence takes a long time to be felt and it will take a long time to repair this error.

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It's not social engineering, it's biology; many animals mate for life too.
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Yet many humans don't mate for life, throughout human history. So is that their biology?
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Big difference between mating and marriage. Lot of marriage where mating is not happening but couples cannot separate because of social/legal/emotional ramifications.
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yeah marriage is more of a business deal than anything else

/married for 20 years

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So what are you proposing? Force people to marry and have children? Ignore the problem?
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When children are older, they take care of their parents and grandparents

Not around here; many parents and grandparents are put away in care homes. The tax code even penalizes multiple generations living together as many elderly benefits are conditional on total household income.

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Modern medicine greatly extending lifespan while incapacitated or otherwise needing lots of help also makes things get very weird.
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In practice that group is small though and neglible among non elderly.
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Why exclude the elderly?
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