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I'm biased (I'm European), but I'd much rather be middle class in Europe than in USA.
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The US is biased to favor the top half of society. Hence why there is a lot of vocal poorer people and a lot of low profile wealthier people (I'm not including the 1% or even the 5% in this).

When you are in the 75%ish of the US, it's very easy to make a case that life in the US is better. But we don't really talk about that because it's pretty taboo when poorer people are struggling much more than they would in Europe.

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Almost half of US households earn $100k+ now. The median American is affluent by European standards. The "middle class" of Europe and America has become less comparable over time because median incomes have significantly diverged. You see it in many aspects of lifestyle and the kinds of things they can afford to buy.

20 years ago this was not the case. The minimum wage in some parts of the US is now higher than the average wage in most of Europe.

The US has a population that will always struggle to survive without government assistance. Per multiple US statistical agencies that is about 10-15% of households.

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>The minimum wage in some parts of the US is now higher than the average wage in most of Europe.

definitely not in Western Europe.

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The minimum legal salary where I live will be >€80k in a couple months. The minimum hourly wage is equivalent to about €40k annualized. Does the average person in Western Europe earn €80k?

These types of minimum wages used to be limited to expensive locales but it is spreading across the US pretty rapidly. Now you see minimum wages rapidly approaching $20/hr in places far enough from a major city that houses still cost $250k.

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Not 75%, more like 95%. Only about the top 5% have a chance of a better life than the equivalent in Europe.
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Poor people in America (25th percentile) have more money that middle class people (50th percentile) in Europe. This wasn't true 20 years ago.
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Money is one thing, quality of life is another. Also money alone isn’t even a fair comparison because stuff costs different amounts across countries.
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This is untrue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe...

Median wealth per adult has the USA at #28, below Italy, Spain, Slovenia, and Portugal.

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Income is the relevant metric. Most poor people (worldwide) have negligible savings.

USA 25th percentile 28k to 30k EU-27 50th percentile 24k to 26k.

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This comment contradicts your earlier comment though, where you mentioned “poor people have”, a clear reference to wealth rather than earnings.
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In the US people don't say "has money" as meaning net worth, they are generally talking about spendable money ie a paycheck unless you're talking about someone super rich who "has money" or "comes from money."
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Maybe. Open to the idea others use the same words to mean different things. Will is being imprecise while also being argumentative which is fun.
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> a clear reference to wealth rather than earnings.

No, sorry, it isn't. People commonly use the phrase "has money" to refer to income in American English.

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This is moving the goalposts. You said "have more money than."
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Yes. Spendable money. Income. The common meaning of the phrase among non-rich people.
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You have to look at purchasing power parity.

A bigger salary is no good if you have nothing left after paying housing, groceries, bills, education, healthcare...

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more money but what about access to healthcare, education, vacation?
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It's a shrinking issue once you get out of the bottom ~50%, and a non-issue once you get above ~75%.

Again, the deal with the US is that the rich live better and the poor live worse. Or put another way; people who make money get to keep more, and people who don't make money are given less.

Because there are so many more people who have money, and because those people like living comfortably, available healthcare and education is world class. Make sure not to read that as "All healthcare and education", it's "available healthcare and education".

Generally people who are earning a lot don't care as much about vacation, but every white collar job will generally give at least a standard 15 days off and 10 holidays. Ironically as you move up you are generally given more vacation while actually using less.

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I think we are seeing the decline of even this. The European debt crisis, the United States security umbrella being disinterested in Europe, austerity, increasing retirement age, an inability to defend Ukraine without the United States. The running gag they don't have AC...

Even poor populations worldwide have access to the 3 things you described, but the quality is lower.

European decline has been mentioned since the 1930s.

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Poor people in the US have fully subsidized healthcare and education.

Americans don't have vacation in the same way Scandinavian countries don't have a minimum wage. Even the most left-leaning States in the US have not written it into law because it is effectively addressed by custom. Americans are sufficiently happy with it that vacation isn't a political topic.

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And yet the poorest 25th percentile of Americans are not enjoying a better quality of life than the European middle class. If those numbers are accurate, all they tell us is that personal wealth is an even worse indicator of having a life worth living than we would have thought 20 years ago.
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Imagine being so bitter you are lying this much. Wow.
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I'm biased as well, being American. I think I'd much rather be middle class in Europe than the USA as well. Middle class in the US is a constant feeling of the ladder dissolving just beneath you.
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Get off Facebook and get on Wikipedia.

Or go visit there.

Even in rich cities, it felt like I was in the lower middle class area in my suburban area.

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I haven't been on Facebook in 15 years. I spend every night on Wikipedia, following random links. I worked for a Parisian company for a decade and have been around western EU more than most Americans.

Probably dial back your assumptions a little bit. I've earned my opinions just as much as you have.

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If you're middle class in America and you'd like to be middle class in Europe, you can just do that.
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I have to imagine in several years when you have a wife/husband and kids and ageing parents your views will change.
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The point is about economic mobility - of course, people get tied down as they get older.

Middle class people from wealthy nations who move to poor countries are relatively rich by the standards of their new country. Middle class people from poor countries who move to rich countries are relatively poor by the standards of their new country.

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Depends. If you are middle class in US with little savings, moving to Europe will probably make your life worse as relative wages are lower for many professions (e.g software eng).

If you are middle class in EU and have little savings, moving to US will do the opposite and you would be better off.

Your comparison holds for the inverse: getting most of your quality of life from static wealth.

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Define worse/better.
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People always make this case, if you're not satisfied then move. As someone who has changed countries twice and continents once, I can attest it's not an easy or convenient thing to do. Money or lifestyle is one thing, but you're also leaving behind family and culture. Statements like these are so dismissive to that struggle that it's almost offensive to me.
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No one said it was easy, just that it's possible, saying this as someone who's also moved continents.
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I have no idea why you're being downvoted, because you're absolutely right. I have circumstances that make moving abroad something like a nuclear option. I could take my job with me, but that's the least of it.
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The point is that middle class Americans can become middle class Europeans, but middle class Europeans can't become middle class Americans, because they can't afford it.

I didn't say it'd be easy. I'm just pointing out that only one of the two groups being discussed has a real choice in the matter.

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That is the entire point I'm trying to make. You can win the argument by being pedantic about the precise thing you were saying, or we can recognize the broader implication of what you are suggesting people to do. Only economically viable means nothing when it comes to life decisions.
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I don't think you realize the situation of the US middle class.

High education costs. High healthcare costs. One serious disease or accident can bankrupt you. Buying a house usually means a 30 years loans at 7% so after 10 years you still have 85% of capital left to pay off.

Salaries are higher but everything is more expensive, so in purchasing power parity it's basically the same.

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Yes, I wrote that I prefer Europe
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I'd much rather the people of every continent have the combined technology advancements of three major powers vs two.
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Do you realize the variety of breakfast cereals you are giving up?
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Also the range of things with added sugar. I never imagined sauerkraut (you know, sour cabbage) could have sugar added to it.
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Arrogant? Actually we are not the ones running around and claiming we are the best country in the world :)
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Europeans are crazy arrogant and racist but it is the soft kind lacking self awareness.

Every person I have ever spoken to who is not white has told me they experienced more prejudice and racism in Europe than America. (at least the ones who have actual been somewhere in Europe)

America still has areas of hard bigotry but most places are wildly diverse and accepting. The favored EU countries everyone holds up are so white and homogeneous it is comical.

This is not dunking on Europe or any specific country but comparing America to some Scandinavia country rich in oil is an apple to oj situation just like comparing America to China or Saudi would be.

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I guess you didn't read the thread :)
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Not completely but I did read some of your comments. In terms of economic growth you have a point, I guess.
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It was a joke. I was trying to say that I found a few arrogant Europeans
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Ah yes... the "European". From the Scandinavian viking to the Sicilian - one homogenous group that agrees on everything and acts the same.
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Well, the Scandinavian and Sicilian do share one currency and one immigration policy and one set of regulations - which are the things that we generally look at when we analyze economies.
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Norwegians, Danes, Swedes and Finns all use a different currency. Finns and Sicilians do share a currency though, but all these countries have different immigration policies and regulations. I don't think you really know how the EU works.
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Not currency! Only Nordic on euro is Finland
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> Europeans are notoriously arrogant. It's a mockable combination.

Not a very rigorous economic argument - besides they also don't share an immigration policy, nor a single currency (Denmark)

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If you remove tech companies, US and A has spent the last twenty years in stagnation, too. If that bubble bursts, both are on par.

If it bears fruits and we build ``it'', everyone dies, which is par, also?

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There is tech, but oil as well.

It's both tech and shale oil that saved the US from the decline predicted at the end of last century.

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Gemini says (20 years growth): - USA: 51% total, 27% without tech. - EU: 25% total, 21% without tech. - China: 345% total, 205% without tech.
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A 'bubble bursting', if that happens, doesn't make the tech sector go to zero. Apple doesn't suddenly stop making iPhones. It would take a hell of a lot more than that for the US economy to fall to European levels.
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Yet Europeans are healthier, happier, and have a better quality of life than Americans. They also have so much better transport infrastructure it's embarrassing for Americans. Like all the money America generates, where does it go?

Maybe you're just bitter?

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> Yet Europeans are healthier, happier, and have a better quality of life than Americans.

I wonder if this is actually true. I see very few Americans taking every possible opportunity to make bombastic statements about how their lives are better than everyone else's (at least on HN). This conversation seems quite asymmetric from my perspective.

> Maybe you're just bitter?

This comes off as psychological projection.

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> I see very few Americans taking every possible opportunity to make bombastic statements about how their lives are better than everyone else's

Very few Americans have any experience about how life is in Europe, while the contrary is much more common.

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Gemini says: Around 28% to 32% of Americans have visited Europe in their lifetime, while roughly 15% to 20% of Europeans overall have visited the United States.
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Gemini is shit, just like other LLMs. Tourists don't have any idea how life is in a visiting country. How many US citizens have eve emigrated to Europe, vs European citizens that have emigrated to the US and have an idea of how day-to-day life is there ?
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Gemini says: Over the past 20 years, approximately 1.8 million to 1.9 million Europeans have emigrated permanently to the United States (measured by lawful permanent resident status/green cards), while an estimated 1.6 million to 2.0 million Americans have moved to Europe on long-term residence permits and visas

I'll just say that I don't think the reason is a lack of knowledge and leave it here.

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UK doesn't count, becausd it suffers of many of the problems that affect the US. And especially here on HN, there are almost no US citizens that have moved to Europe, and many European citizens that moved to the US, and can talk out of experience.
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This is Euro cope.

No one thinks this outside the 5 minutes someone in Europe reads an article about how France says they will send troops to Ukraine.

But the troops never will come.

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Demographics.
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Show me the HDI of the US vs each country in Europe, including all the poor ones.

Edit - never mind, I'll do it, HDI in order:

Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, Belgium, Ireland, Finland, UK, US, Slovenia, Austria, Luxembourg, France, Spain, Czechia, Italy, Greece, Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, Portugal, Croatia, Latvia, Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, Russia, Belarus, Bosnia, Moldova, Ukraine

To put that into context, Moldova is on par with Ecuador, Tonga and Dominican Republic.

The US is a country of roughly 340 million people with an HDI above Austria.

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HDI is indeed a better metric than the various alternatives based on dollars.

But still. The six US states that score less than 0.9 (i.e. Kentucky, Mississippi et al) are supposedly peers of EU countries like Portugal, Estonia and Croatia, i.e. exactly the places that well-off footloose Americans are choosing to move to (Portugal is packed with well-heeled US refugees).

So apparently HDI does not fully measure quality of life, either.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Dev...

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Trends become the future. If European stagnation continues, those advantages will vanish by the time we're old.

I'm frustrated, not bitter. Americans are acutely aware of falling behind China, and rightly concerned about it. Europe is falling behind Alabama, Mexico, and Brazil, and arrogant about it.

Edit: y'all are supposed to be our moral allies in creating a utopian future with prosperity and world peace. Instead the most likely outcomes seem to be that you'll fade to irrelevancy and rather than compromising between America's vision and Europe's vision, we'll compromise between China's vision and America's vision. We liked your vision more than China's.

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I see you are making a lot of similar comments. I am not sure where you get this perceived 'arrogance', I'm sure some of its there, but I'm similarly sure it can be found for Americans or Chinese. People being people, what's new.

> y'all are supposed to be our moral allies

This all comes across as rather black and white. I don't know why you take this stance. I'm sure you understand that it would be very hard for you to understand Europe as a whole, and judge it, just like it would be hard for me to do this with America.

Regardless, when talking morals, I'm also sure you agree there are numerous examples where America has not held up its end of the moral utopian future of prosperity and world peace.

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read Varoufakis for the story on how this happened. European surplus capital gets recycled as VC money into Silicon Valley. So it's not like there's some big choice to be made, its potentially a systemic part of the global monetary flows.
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Ironically, the US is always busy with growth. How about celebrating a victory for once?

Take a look at NLNet vs YC. At NLNet, You set your milestones, do the work and get rewarded.

YC just throws money in the hopes one company is a unicorn. Both support growth, but they're not comparable at all.

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