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Sorry, how is PIX different than a plethora of similar P2P and p2b solutions already present in Europe?
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It's not different, many countries already have their own version of it, you just don't hear about them. India's UPI has more users but you don't hear about it.

Maybe we hear about it because, it's right in the US' backyard and the biggest country there is Brazil from which pix comes from. All these payment systems threaten visa and Mastercard but pix is the largest in the US' backyard because the country it comes from, Brazil, is the largest there.

And it's also government run, dun dun dun. The us hates anything that is government run. That's why they hate china and communists and socialism so much.

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Agree that PIX bothers the US more because it's directly under US (self assessed) area of influence. But the reason is not some philosophical alignment, but rather deep rooted lobbying practices.

Evidence of high levels of power political pressure - US latest 25% tariff pressure came out explicitly around this topic - https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/brazil-us-clash-ove...

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Right, but PIX on their website says they're expanding to Europe, which makes me wonder what do they have to offer on this heavily saturated market.
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India's UPI is practically impossible to use even for tourists in India. It's not serving the same role as Visa and MasterCard.
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How is it impossible to use? Apparently everyone in India is using it? Apparently only tourists face issues with it?

With visa and Mastercard you pay transaction fees and rent for a card terminal aka card reader, which are lower or non existent with these homegrown or local P2P payment systems. Outside western developed countries aka the US and the richest European countries like France, Germany, that's enough to stop using visa and Mastercard.

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2 years ago, you needed Indian number to use UPI.

Took me 2 visit to fully setup. First visit to India, they are like I need a debit card. I hate debit cards, but I got it. Which got delivered to my US address. When I got there, they are like I need Indian number and I have to do KYC to update. 3rd visit, I got everything working. At that point, they also let you use US number. But I wouldn't recommend US number as roaming is expensive if you have ATT.

You also have to disable developer mode and can't root the device.

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Impossible for tourists to use yes. You need an Indian bank account and there are services ostensibly for tourists but they still don't work everywhere, for example many vendors will want friend payments instead of business payments because they don't want to pay the surcharge.
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Tourist UPI only permits P2M payments, and most normal transactions (as well as refunds) are conducted P2P.
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UPI used to be good, but they started adding charges after Visa and Mastercard lobbied D.C. probably with huge bribes. And the Indian government is spineless against D.C.
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Surely the UK can also pull this off given how quick faster payments is. I'm always surprised at how we just stuck with Visa
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I think the problem is that merchants hate the card networks and consumers generally like them and there are a lot more consumers than merchants. If you are a politician, which block of voters are you going to side with?
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Merchants don't hate the card networks. That's a minority in my experience, who are penny wise and pound foolish.
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They like the card networks because they are lured by point schemes, effectively money charged to the merchants and then shared back to cardholders. Consumers would flip in a heartbeat if shops were allowed to offer discounts to those not using credit cards.

I used to by all my PC parts from a shop that had a 5% discount for cash purchases. It was the sort of shop that was just a counter with all the merch hidden in the back. I don't know how they kept the CC companies from knowing but maybe 40% of their business was cash purchases (circa 2019).

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> Consumers would flip in a heartbeat if shops were allowed to offer discounts to those not using credit cards.

We must be very different consumers.

Also, many places already do effectively this, they charge a surcharge for using a card.

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Not in the UK, or the EU, as its actually illegal (as in against the law, as well as the contract with the provider).
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> as well as the contract with the provider

It used to be here in the US, but there was enough violations that they stopped putting it in the terms.

But, looking into this, it looks like some states have made it illegal. I'm curious how well that's enforced.

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Yeah, there are folks who use more card benefits than they pay in annual fees, to whom this might not be appealing.

For those on the other side of the balance, maybe it would be.

Either way, I can't imagine many shops doing it, even if the economics makes sense. They'd rather the immediate and direct pad to the bottom line.

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It's the same reason that I don't use bitcoin for large purchases: I want the ability to have disputes handled if and when something goes awry. With cash, I have no recourse.
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CC companies allow this surcharge/discount for CC/cash now. Have for several years. I think it was caused by a class action suit.
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It is the difference between Credit and Debit cards.

I could see Debit Cards being replaced by direct transfers.

The issue is what happens if who you pay too does not provide the srvice or just runs off with the money.

Under UK Law the customer can deal with the Credit Card issuer and get their money back with a direct payment it is npot always possible.

For debit cards I think the issue will refund if fraudelent but might take a battle. With direct payments the customer has a much harder job.

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Yes, and it exists - its called "pay by bank".

its cheaper but customers lose protection for doing it, and as its illegal (yes, against the law) to offer them a discount for using debit cards, cash, or direct payments they have no reason to.

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Yes I know pay by bank – I have used that to pay my plumber. In effect it replaces paying by cheque.

But the problem is that if you use it to pay for a service and do not get the service you can only claim off who you paid and that requires taking them to court while Credit Cards just require phoning up the card provider. Debit cards are between the two.

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Exactly. If it is an outright fraud you do have some protection because of the push fraud rules, but not if its bad products etc.

I have not actually used it. I have paid some people (mechanic, gardener) with a bank transfer which works well thanks to faster payments being near instant.

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I've noticed growing use of similar options in the UK already, like Payit and truelayer (often shown in checkout via "Pay by bank"). Ebay and Whetherspoons are examples of places providing these options.
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The issue is in the UK we passed a law that "banned credit card charges", but what it actually did was ban discounts for alternate payment methods, meaning everyone has to pay the credit card fees, even if you pay cash. (this was the effect, you can still offer discounts, but the base CC fee legally needs to be baked in first.)

This will mean, its harder for competing payment services to function. And its easier for the big credit card companies to up the % they charge without the public noticing, or blaming them directly.

It was fascinating watching the media coverage, twisting themselves in knots to miss these points while cheering how we were 'standing up to the big cc companies', it was actually quite cringe-worthy at times.

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Indian UPI is also apparently annoying Visa and Mastercard so its introducing a small charge on transactions greater than 2000 INR/20 USD.
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UPI mandates are not wildly annoying to deal with. I’d pay 2.9% for someone to manage them for me.
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In Malaysia, we have DuitNow, which is a similar idea. It’s been great. It’s pretty common to go cashless now, even outside the big cities and in rural areas. Just scan the QR code with your bank app, pay, and you’re done. Wish more countries would adopt this.
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Thanks for posting. Interesting, I will try to read more this stuff.
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