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It's nice but a low bar. Steam pioneered crappy Chrome-based desktop apps before Electron existed, which is also why it's so hard to run Steam in Wine. It has a longer startup and shutdown process (they even call it that) than my entire OS.

Epic, EA, etc then made their own similar launchers. Of course all of them also want to launch when Windows boots, update constantly, and not close when you press close.

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Out of interest why would you run Steam in Wine?
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To play Windows-only games on Mac, or before Proton existed, Linux. You can't launch the games without Steam.
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I’m pretty sure the early steam client was based on Trident before chromium no?

Edit: actually it seems to have been Trident, then WebKit, then Chromium Embedded

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Yes, but when they finally switched to Chromium, it was still before Electron
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Vibe coding can yield us Tauri apps that end up being like 3mb rather than 130mb for a "Hello World" app.
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I would go one step farther - if you're vibe coding, skip Tauri altogether. I've been on-and-off vibecoding a GitKraken replacement using egui instead, and the memory footprint is very low. Otherwise can't tell the difference, as I'm not reading the code either way.
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Using Tauri on Linux gave me appreciation for why Electron just ships an entire browser. WebKitGTK is kinda rough around the edges.
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I vibe-coded a paste manager using wails (https://github.com/egeozcan/mahpastes), and I'm currently on linux (bazzite) and I have 0 problems with the rendering.
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One of the things I hit is that there is no way to trigger an "open folder" dialog. It gets mapped to "open file" instead. The correct hooks exist in both WebKit and in GTK, but not wired up in WebKitGTK. I think the fix would be quite minor but I looked into what is involved in raising a patch and decided to leave it. There are a lot of minor paper cuts like this.

I did hit a couple of CSS or rendering quirks, but the rendering perf also seemed noticeably poor, and that's harder to live with.

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Recently vibe coded this https://www.rominabox.app/ and also loved Tauri for the "builder" part of it! What a pleasure to work with.

Granted, it's very simple, but I felt it was a breeze.

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Isn't egui really cpu inefficient though? It repaints at 60fps if e.g. you move the mouse over it
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If it is, it hasn't been a problem so far. I have been focused heavily on memoization, to what extent that's possible when fully vibe coding.

Fwiw, what it's trying to replace (GitKraken) is slow, clunky, and resource hungry, so it's not hard to beat.

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No mobile support either
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You're probably doing something the LLM has less fluency with.
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Definitely would concede this, but I haven't had any issues so far. It's been able to make things look exactly as I've dictated them, even with relatively complex visualization of git branching. I get the sense that, with how capable Opus 5.5 is, "less capable" no longer means "not capable enough".
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LLMs can for sure write GTK4 (or Relm4), Swift UI, whatever windows uses, Kotlin for Android.
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They can write brainfuck. I said less fluency.
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What I meant: they can write it pretty well. Probably because share of good quality code of native apps is much higher bad quality, due to all js slop we had even before LLM slop.
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You can just skip Tauri entirely and get true native apps. No web wrapping required
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But there’s still no way to get consistent results cross-platform without a web view, right? I guess Tauri isn’t even consistent because it relies on the system’s browser and they do differ to some degree.
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My friend, inconsistency is the entire point. You now have incredible power to write truly native apps that fit in with the platform and follow all the standards. The bottleneck is now you, or whoever owns each target platform and understands what native apps feel like.
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So I’m supposed to maintain a native app for each platform and try to be sure they’re aligned in every way except visuals? Sounds like a recipe for bad UX if anybody uses more than one of them.
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Not you, your coding agent, for three platforms and at least ten languages

If you go Rust all the way all you need is the installer for each platform

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Agents are pretty shit at making UX decisions unless you're heavily in the training distribution
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On the contrary: using a web view is the worst possible UX for your users. It's slow, uses a ton of memory, and doesn't integrate well with the desktop. The only reason people ever did it was laziness, not because it produced a better product.
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I'd argue that being slow and using a ton of memory has more to do with (very) poorly optimized websites rather than blaming browsers as a whole. Sure, they'll never be as efficient as native, but people put a lot of work into optimizing browsers and most websites are never optimized.

Memory use alone is an interesting case for comparison because websites tend to have a lot more images/videos loaded than other applications. All of those PNGs and JPEGs need to be decompressed before you can paint them to the screen which makes them much larger.

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> I'd argue that being slow and using a ton of memory has more to do with (very) poorly optimized websites rather than blaming browsers as a whole.

A web browser is a huge platform. Audio, 2D and 3D graphics, file handling, network requests,... A lot of code while your application needs are tiny. That is wasteful and a security risk.

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That's really only argument against shipping a browser with your application. For ordinary websites (or WebViews) that's not really a concern because it is shared and automatically updated.
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Yeah the problem is having to write 5 apps, not the inconsistency.
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If you're writing five apps, you're doing it wrong. A huge amount of probably any app can be contained in a common blob of business logic and wiring, with some native presentation on top. Yes, I oversimplify, but folks have been doing exactly that for decades. More work? Yup, even with a common engine it's more work than firing up Electron. That's where "do we even give a shit about what we're shipping?" comes in. If there's no pride in the finished product, well, Electron isn't going to save your product, either.
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IME, the UI library idiosyncrasies are the pieces that take the longest to get right. Common business logic is super simple by comparison.
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> A huge amount of probably any app can be contained in a common blob of business logic and wiring, with some native presentation on top.

I keep seeing people claim this, yet most UI software I see really doesn't do anything that complicated. It's some basic database CRUD stuff and some basic algorithms, and then all the actual effort lies in making the UI feel good.

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> Yeah the problem is having to write 5 apps, not the inconsistency.

Isn’t that what abstraction and interface is about? You can write the common business logic and presentation concerns, and then share it across each native implementation.

That is what web wrapping is in truth, but it’s just inneficient because of the huge surface area of web technologies.

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For a whole lot of apps, almost all of the difficult stuff is in making the UI feel right.
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Aesthetics, usability, and technical flavor are different axes and feel right is a subjective point. And based on anecdata, usability is what actual users want. Web wrapping is mostly an exclusive focus on aesthetics. With native frameworks, you often get very close to "feel right" without much effort.
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> With native frameworks, you often get very close to "feel right" without much effort.

I've only seen this sentiment on nerd forums but never among my less technical friends, so I'm a bit reluctant to accept this wisdom honestly. That said, if you're just building something for a technical crowd you'll probably make them much happier if you make your implementation use native widgets and take up much less memory and redraw faster at the expense of a slightly jankier UX. Though, this is probably why IRC clients all feel janky lol.

For example a lot of my less technical friends/family really like the visual design of Spotify even though it conflicts with a lot of design language on MacOS, Windows, and Android.

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Or my manager... or my stakeholders. Damn you powers that be!
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> But there’s still no way to get consistent results cross-platform without a web view, right?

… good? I want my applications to be consistent with the platform they run on, not with their own stupidity on other platforms.

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The hidden reason why so many people are frustrated with 'modern design' that goes unaddressed is that most software nowadays completely ignores the standards of the system it runs on. Every single developer of even the most trivial apps insists that their design language is the most important in the room, which is what brings us to the temptation of using a webapp for everything so every user on every OS sees the exact same thing. It's gotten so bad that the only places I see native system UIs from third parties is either older software or hobbyist projects, but never anything corporate.
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Some of that is also that what "native UI" means has shifted a bit. To look at Windows, Win95 had a thoroughly considered UI design that was very well adapted to both what it needed to do and the hard constraints on it. Win11 is... kind of a shitshow. (Are parts of it still from Windows 3.1? I haven't tried to track them down... but in Win10 there were a few dark corners.) It made sense to match the native UI in the Win95 days. It often doesn't now, it's simply not a target worth hitting. You could just use Win32 and target the older Win95 look, but apart from appearance issues, it was designed to work well in 1995, and we simply demand different things from our UIs now. Like support for touchscreens. Old Win32 apps are painful on touchscreens. (But, often, awesome without a mouse.) And those are real considerations, not oooh-shiny-new-thing designer BS.
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Yes, modern Windows design is a bit of a mess, caused by both the designer bug of redesigning everything (we have had at least 3 different Windows design languages prevalent over the last 10 years) and Windows having to support extremely old legacy software. The second was almost nonexistent when Windows 95 was designed, they could have a true clean slate, so the comparison isn't as fair. But still, even with the abundance of native UI frameworks, the point holds true that no new software uses any of them, no matter if it's Win32 or WinUI. They could implement them very easily, and some hobbyist software does so, and it looks very native and in-line with the rest of Windows 11, but they choose not to.

And yes, the 3.11 ODBC file selector is still in Windows 11. Praise be to legacy components.

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As a user of both windows and mac operating systems, I'd rather the app be consistent between them so I don't have to adopt a different workflow depending on which OS I'm using the app on.
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What’s wrong with something like Qt or wxWidgets for native crossplattform GUI frameworks?
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Skia is the 2D graphics library used in Chromium. A number of GUI frameworks (Flutter and Avalonia) directly use Skia to do non-native platform GUIs that are consistent across platforms.
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"Consistent across platforms" is not a user requirement.
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Is consistent results what you want? non-native controls look and behave funny on iOS, and the iOS look on any other platform is annoying.
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There is also Slint that'd fir perfectly. Others have built game launcher with it as well
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Except EGS's slop garbage is 400MB on linux
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Like these https://goodapps.store/

Disclaimer: All mine, open-source, ai-assisted, less than 5MB each. I love rust+tauri combo.

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Much better it can give us just webview in wry and winit without tauri bloat
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Tauri doesn't solve the problems Electron solves. It just externalizes the solution so things can subtly stop working randomly.
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I actually think that vibe coding lends itself well to stuff with really strict type systems. When you use Claude Code, it basically works on a loop until it gets something "right". A type system allows for part of the "right" criteria to be baked into the compilation, giving a hard block if it doesn't at least pass that.

I've had reasonably good luck having Claude generate Rust code that performs well.

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I see it as a forcing function to clean up tech debt
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> forcing function to clean up tech debt

The real reason rewrites to fix tech debt used to fail was that it took too long to get to feature partity & the goal posts moved constantly while you were on the rewrite team.

The sunk cost of existing code is no longer considered in a rewrite.

Maybe it was hard to write in the first place, but it is not hard to rewrite anymore, as long you've got decent tests.

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I think in Steam's case it was more like a lack of competitive pressure, their publisher dashboard still packs HTML/CSS fixes for IE6/7/8 that's code they probably haven't touched in ~20 years and it's certainly not because they couldn't afford or lacked time to work on it!
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> Maybe it's still in A/B testing or something

Are you on the beta branch? It doesn't look like its in stable yet (Settings --> Interface --> Client Beta Participation)

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Also, you're going to get a different speed up depending on which page you have set as your starting page.

If you have steam configured so it shows the store page on startup, you have to add on the time it for that page to load.

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yeah, Steam takes forever to start, one of the slowest apps I use. Photoshop is similarly lethargic starting up.
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It’s similar for the productivity/launcher app Raycast. They’re trying to find new USPs compared to the many copycats.
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i don't care how fast it is beyond a certain point. What is more shocking is all the bugs that vibe coding landed epic. I can't imagine shipping software at this scale in this state.
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Not really a war. Steam updated their client the day before Epic decided to mouth off. Kinda hilarious actually.
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Surprise it’s speed wars between Electron apps. Steam is based on Chromium/Electron.
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The new version of Epic is based on Tauri. Also written in JS and probably React (haven't decompiled it yet) but the web runtime is part of Windows instead of shipped with the app so it takes less disk space and RAM. And you can write perf sensitive code in Rust for even more speedup.
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I also avoid installing Tauri apps too. Anything that loads Javascript that’s not my browser is a bad smell and potential resource hog IMO.
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Tauri uses a system installed browser instead of shipping a separate separate copy with every application. That allows memory to actually be shared instead of duplicated when you have multiple apps using it, and it automatically gets security updates.
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Would you say a desktop application using lua instead of javascript has less smell? What do you make of something like mpv, which supports both?
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Interesting, I didn't know they moved to a Chromium based desktop application. But honestly, I don't feel like there's any performance issues with the steam desktop client (I'm running it on Fedora, but I'm assuming performance is relatively similar on different platforms).

Ref: https://docs.steambrew.app/developers/environment

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The switch from IE/Trident to Chromium happened in 2010 alongside launching support for Macs.
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I'd imagine one can now focus on creating a client for a single OS and having the AI do the porting to others as it would essentially be a translation.

Perhaps it will bring back native apps because supporting other platforms is less laborious.

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Hopefully LLM models and harnesses improve to where Chromium or Electron apps can be more trivially converted to native apps. You're paying for tokens for downstream compute efficiency across the user base.
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They already are. I asked opus 5.5 to plan out and begin building a swift version of my electron notes app, using a similar architecture / feature set. I hut enter and honestly forgot about it. 2 hours later im reading slack while making my next round of coffee, and my session is interrupted by a native app opening on my phone (the model installed it for me to test). It.... has 2/3 of the features already and looks awesome, holy crap. It skipped my suggestion to use the Lexical (web) editor and is.... using. platform native one.

time will tell if it can make it the way i like but.... it can definitely get far. Used 40% of my session limits on my $20/mo sub.

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I wonder what best practices here look like at this point. In my world, we've moved past skills for something like this, having porting helper/validator/etc things be harness level is measurably better than what skills look like right now. The open plugin spec is certainly an improvement (namely in packaging and distribution)- but, really you'd be leaving perf on the table if you were not to tune your harness. I wonder if something like dsh, pi, or other extensible (coding) harnesses have something like a concept of "harness as an extension".
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It’s just that the vibe coded stuff has so many assumptions baked in, that you will be constantly surprised about the behaviors your slopped codebase has. Doesn’t matter for small tools, where you’ll be delighted that clicking that one label copies it to your clipboard - nice one, Claude, that’s delightful!

It’s less nice when your web app launches that other service only when the other Tailscale node is up, because the agent interpreted your prompt as a hard access rule.

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It's because no matter how 'good' the AI output is, "vibe coding" is strongly associated with "completely unreviewed and untested". LLMs have brought the skill floor straight through the ground and into the depths of hell, so people are doubly cautious with it because there's a very good chance with any vibe coded app that there's not a single person in the world that truly understands what it actually does just behind the scenes. It could be completely fine, or it could be breaking your system or uploading your sensitive data somewhere because the vibe coder provided flawed instructions or the LLM decided to make an unexpected 'optimization'. Wanna roll the dice and find out which one it is?
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I'm reserving "vibe coding" in my head for "the programming style where you just prompt your way around without even looking at the code and only caring if your happy path works".

I have a couple of nice "vibe coded" apps I would never dream of releasing because I'm not interested in the QA, more than anything else. The problem is the other people who are not quite so considerate and think that what they tossed out in 15 minutes is of interest to the rest of the world. The value of a software package release now is more in the QA than the code.

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Yeah I'm really impressed by what Opus 5.5 can manage.

I feel like human code is on a wide quality spectrum. The best human code is way better than what Opus 5.5 can do. But the average code, I'm not so sure.

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I have only very rarely in my career encountered code worse than what an LLM produces. It happens, but your typical programmer is still quite a bit better than an LLM.
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Could definitely be I've had the misfortune of working with below-average programmers (and inheriting their codebases).
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I feel bad for your employer
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> Human code is slop.

I'm not saying you have to be grateful to the millions of people whose work the AI you use was trained on, but why shit on them...

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Opus 5.5 is impressive and I'm happy using it to write a ton of code.

But it also still writes awful code with poor maintainability if you don't keep a very close eye on it.

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Trust me I know what it's like. I do a lot of it. Even with Opus you still have to guide it aggressively or your codebase turns to slop.

An experienced dev with Claude is better than either of them alone but you can't just point your agent at a repo and expect good results. And when people talk about vibe coding that's usually what they mean.

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> People still talk about "Vibe coding" or implying "vibe coded" stuff is poor quality

Yes they do. Because it is. Anyone who cares about the quality of their product is, at minimum, carefully reviewing the output from an LLM to make sure it didn't sneak in anything crazy. More likely they are writing a lot of code by hand, because that is faster than reviewing and correcting the LLM code. Competent developers do not just hand it off and say "the AI is really good so I can trust what it put out".

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Creating slop was already a solved problem before AI. AI just made it much more efficient.
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Hand crafted artisanal slop vs dark software factory slop.
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human code is slop. tell us all what the LLMs were trained on? slop?
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