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Exactly why does Apple need to do any model training/development? They are out here selling the shovels.
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Apple’s Photos ecosystem is privacy oriented and as a result some (now) baseline features require the use of local models.

The Foundation models keep a surprisingly decent set of data available for fast filtering by a local LLM.

I’ve found a slower, second pass, is needed by Qwen to clean it up. (I am running on the new Mac Mini m5 pro 64gb.)

I’ve run my own tests using a date range, a short description of a red cedar planter box build I did last year, and a set of known correct photos.

There is some cool stuff you can do without sending your family’s pics up to any of the frontier model providers.

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I've found some strange guardrails with the Foundation models. Like blocking describing of any photo with a single woman in it. It does this relatively consistently but with a different subset every time. Like out of 10 photos in the set, it's skips 6 then the next run, it skips 3. Have you seen guardrail issues like this?

I switched to Gemma 4 instead.

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same i am using new embeddinggemma. seems far more capable than foundation models.
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I am going to assume that means "a women by herself" and not that it can magically detect her marital status before refusing to continue (I suppose it could be laser-focused on wedding rings...)
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No. Apple’s Photos ecosystem uploads all Photos effectively unencrypted to Apple in a way that is readable by Apple, allowing Apple to do server-side analysis of all content. This content is also provided to US or Chinese federal authorities without due process or warrants.

Nothing about iCloud Photos is private.

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With Advanced Data Protection enabled (it's not available globally but it is in the US), Photos is E2EE.
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I don't want any of these features and yet they've been forced upon me and are now getting in the way of me actually using my computer how I want. Games and heavy applications slow down and stutter because of "AI" background processes, even with App Tamer, my machine runs too hot to even touch when just idling. Compared to when I got my M2 in '23 and thought, "This is the fastest and snappiest machine I've ever used", my experience with an M5 and the latest macOS version is nothing short of an anti-consumer hellscape.
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My Macs run cool and silently. I've never observed a background "AI" process consuming resources.
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It's not just AI processes. But things like mediaanalysisd, duetexpertd, etc. even the freaking menu bar agent, all regularly pound my computer both when idling and when in use.

I recently installed App Tamer which is helping a bit, but it doesn't allow me to tame everything. I just checked now and duetexpertd was trying to use nearly two full cores. I have all iCloud integrations turned off, I do not use iCloud at all, and I do not have an iPhone, so I am flabbergasted that this iCloud desktop-phone syncing process runs at such high core usage in the background with extreme regularity. Proof: https://imgur.com/VkBh9bi

Unfortunately, this does nothing for services such as WindowServer which now often takes up 50-100% of a core just on its own.

I have reinstalled and upgraded to the latest version. This MacBook is only a few months old.

While typing this message and literally just having open Codex with one running task that is not doing anything substantial, and Firefox, with no high CPU usage from any tab, my laptop got so hot that I had to use another installed program, Stats, to manually bump up the fan since macOS also has absolutely garbage native system fan controls.

I have fibromyalgia and seem to be sensitive to hot keys; my Thinkpad regularly getting to hot to touch with even light usage is EXACTLY why I went and bought a MacBook one morning in '23. One morning I touched my keyboard and realized I was tired of singeing the nerves on my fingertips and having them hurt for hours. So now in '26, finding myself in the same exact position but with a much more expensive computer, I feel like I am living in a corporate hellscape nightmare.

One thing I have noticed is all of my cores can sit idle except a single one and that will still heat up the machine a lot. If the hardware is designed as such, the software MUST be designed to work around this and not blast a core for 10 minutes straight every time one of a dozen or two misbehaving system processes wants to complete a background task. If the software is not designed for this, the hardware is incomplete and faulty. This would be true if it was shipped as firmware; software doesn't get a free pass here.

But now Pages and Numbers recommend document titles for me, so.... worth it?

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this is not my experience at all. I wonder if one of your tweaks is causing the software to get into a bad state. Likely worth reporting to Apple even if it feels like it's going into a void.
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Which tweaks? This is stock macOS 27 on a stock machine, with of course my development stack on top. I have already tried reinstalling the OS. Besides that, everything else has been configured appropriately in system settings and profiles using Ansible, so that I know exactly what configuration state my machine is in. There's nothing weird I am doing to the system processes other than now using App Tamer to prevent the processes from continuing to use multiple cores while I'm trying to use my machine.

I do feel like my complaints go to the void, and honestly I have seen the kind of responses people get on the Apple support forums and it gives me the same ick that Microsoft's does. And lately I'm just going to get someone's canned, patronizing LLM-generated resume-building response. My only hope out of this mess is Gravity Linux catching up and adding full SEP and thunderbolt support. Once that happens, I'm gone.

I do wonder about the prevalence of my experience vs yours. I can quickly find hundreds of threads across various platforms which confirm my experiences. From what I have been able to ascertain, my experience is increasingly common if not more common than yours. Hard to tell.

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Interesting, this has not been my experience at all. I have an M5 machine and I'm not even aware of what AI features have been added, and it's streets ahead of my old M1 Pro in speed.
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The M1 used to be adequate in speed. Then Apple kept adding always-on cloud daemons that run even if you don’t use iCloud.
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peep the comment I just made to the adjacent commenter, that has been my experience. I basically have to run my fans at full speed all day while working now in order to type on my computer (when I'm not using my magic keyboard). It is like a huge problem, not even just a small one but like something that is affecting me negatively every single day, increasingly making me want to break this machine in half and disappear into the woods.
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Exactly my thought as I read it.

They make and sell the hardware that will actually make AI something everyone can used without needing to rely on OpenAI/Anthropic et al.

Apple has never had a moat, anyone else could have built this sort of hardware but they haven't.

So they don't care which model wins, because it will always move out to the edge of the network, and they own a large chunk of that edge.

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Well, the moat is that cpu/npu development is very hard, requires talented engineers, and requires access to cutting edge fab process, all of which in turn costs a lot of $$$. So, sure, “anyone” who has all that can definitely breach Apple’s moat.
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Ok.. and why specifically do people work at Apple?

Hint: money is not the only reason.

Jeez.

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Most of the smart people I know have left Apple because over the last ten or fifteen years, all of the reasons other than money have gone away, and they don’t pay well.
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> Apple has never had a moat, anyone else could have built this sort of hardware but they haven't.

I think both points are very incorrect. Apple has a massive moat. And Apple is making hardware (specifically, CPUs) that are two years ahead.

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Ermmm what?

Apples largest competitive advantage has always been and always will be - trust combined with epic marketing to make the vast majority of people aware of it.

Trust of quality, privacy w.r.t data etc.

I’m sorry but I’ve seen so many bad takes re. Apple over the years. Many of you think you are so smart on topics outside of your domain - but you’re not.

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Don’t underestimate how much of their success is due to unusual internal advantages over competitors.

They spent decades learning to eliminate a 1000 headaches for themselves, and many for their customers, by accumulating vertical integration:

The co-design of their own comms, processors, devices and OS variants. Their own integrated supply chain and sales channels.

The better the results, the more invisible or clock-like their delivery.

Very easy to overlook. But nobody can match them on their terms.

(Nintendo also applied a unique set of internal advantages to generations of successful devices: vertically integrating humble components, highly scoped software, a strong theory of fun, and deep branding with novel polished interfaces.)

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What exactly about the parent comment is wrong? Apple has always been good at making hardware that people are willing to pay a premium to use. I can easily imagine them playing a similar role in local LLMs to the role they played in personal computing in the 1980s or smartphones in the 2010s.
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> Apples largest competitive advantage has always been and always will be - trust.

Lmao

> Many of you think you are so smart on topics outside of your domain

Turn the mirror around

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Nvidia is also selling the shovle but they train their own LLM and by doing so they can fine tune their CUDA/Chip to have a better shovel than others.

Nvidia's own model does not have to beat OpenAI or any SOTA model. Nvidia just need to build up the in house expert and knowledge to make a better chip since hyperscalers and none hyperscaler like Meta is building their own AI chip now.

Apple can chose not to train their own model to learn how to sell a better shovel.

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> They are out here selling the shovels

just wish their containerization / linux compat wasn't so nerfed. Just moved my homelab's inference engine over to a GB10 from a Mac MTP setup to have first class k8s support, as well as open up access to the broader CUDA ecosystem (cuOpt etc.).

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That's just BS cope. They tried and miserably failed - and still are failing badly. Remember, they were the ones to push for AI with "Siri". Many firings later and 2 CEOs later we are still exactly in square one. The fucking thing can't even get who I want to call, let alone set an alarm without touching my phone FFS.
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apple is pretty well set up for this because they do all their hardware in house. if they wanted to, they could pivot in this direction. Ternus is also a hardware guy.
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How big is the local LLM market? I have trouble imagining Apple will move enough units to make $20k/ea worth it for them as a business segment.
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They have been sold out of a lot of units, due to people developing AI, so apparently, it is significant.
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I think the bet is that it will get bigger, both at the consumer level, and with orgs eventually discovering ready-made solutions for having their own on-prem inference.
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100,000 units a year would be $2 billion annually.

And usually, most of a company's revenue comes from the heaviest spenders.

So figure there are some out there who will by tens of these because they have some "idea to change the world". (Whether true or not.) Some startups, etc.

I'd wager, across planet earth right now, it should be trivial to push 100,000 units per year. Probably closer to 500,000 units per year. So that's an easy $10 billion a year.

$2-10 billion is meaningful for any company. Even one as large is Apple.

Especially if it's a first step towards a stronger foothold in the AI inference space.

They can then expand down market to grow the pie further.

For example, with truly dedicated inference boxes.

And given the demand for $7,000 Sparks and sold out $5,000 GPUs, the market for these $20,000 machines is likely much higher than my 100,000 unit lower bound. (Earth is a big place. It doesn't take much excitement to generate massive sales in a space with currently insatiable demand.)

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How many 5080 16 Gig cards would you have to buy to run the same model, and what would that cost?
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idk but naive me sees the article say the model needed 158GB of RAM so I guess 10x 16GB GPUs? Apparently retail price is $1k per 5080 16GB but they're actually selling at $1.5k so I guess $15k for just the GPUs.
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158GB number is for Mistral Medium 3.5 128B model, Muse Spark is way larger.

  Muse Spark Open would require more than 1.6TB of RAM in its native precision (BF16) for the model parameters alone. In a 4-bit quantized (NVFP4) format, the model memory footprint is lowered to about 493GB.
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So about 24gb/expert at NVFP4. If you compressed the KV cache, you might be able to get away with 2x 24GB cards and stream the experts.
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If you're happy with generation speed in 5 t/s range, sure -- PCIe 5.0 x16 is only 64GB/s.
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I never said it would be fast!

In any case, I'd much rather run GLM 5.3 Flash on that sort of hardware. Better fit for the performance profile, and will probably beat Muse Spark Open in most uses.

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They have the best strategy of bigtechco: let others figure out the squishier layers while they focus on selling the best hardware. Privacy has incredible value to a lot of individuals and industries. $20-80k in hardware that *appreciates* the moment you buy it is a reasonable investment for a lot of SMBs, and still less than a single Nvidia rig. Privacy pays.
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I disagree.

I think the iOS App Store is going to be in steep decline in a few years. People will generally have a few apps: ChatGPT, Instagram, messaging, and something like a Photos/Camera app.

Everything else will be done in your AI app.

I've been hooking up more and more data and plugins into ChatGPT/Claude. I only want to use it. I don't want to use other apps if I don't have to. For example, research, buy, plan. I prefer not to use other apps.

I think all it takes is for OpenAI to make a phone from the ground up for this and Apple is going to have serious competition.

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If we're being frank here, Apple's AI strategy lags behind Nvidia, AMD and even Google. Nvidia has CUDA, AMD ships CDNA, Google has the TPU family, and Apple... well, Apple discontinued the rackmount Mac Pro, forfeit the HPC ARM datacenter to Nvidia's Grace CPUs, refuses to sign CUDA drivers, and spent half a decade designing raster GPUs instead of GPGPUs.

All of their competition has real inference and training stacks. Apple ships an iGPU and a smartphone NPU, they're reliant on Nvidia and Google hardware to deliver Apple Intelligence.

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Saying they are lagging assumes they are in the same race

They aren’t

Apple is a high net worth consumer technology integrator that focuses on highest coherence user experience. They pick the most efficient stable technology, integrate it and sell the package

Apple only needs to lead in precisely that they don’t need to lead in literally anything else

in fact if they tried to lead in those other things they would give up their integration capacity

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But they are. Nvidia ships GPGPU ARM SOCs to consumers; why can't Apple? They're both trillion-dollar companies, surely Apple isn't lacking in engineering talent.

The vertical integration argument relies on Apple having a good architecture for AI. First it was the ANE, which everyone (mistakenly) thought would differentiate Apple Silicon from other NPU platforms. Then everyone parroted the "unified memory" talking point without checking to see if professionals actually used it. Now people are pivoting to say the next-gen Apple GPUs will finally blow the last-gen GPGPUs out of the water. Which is good, because there are 4-year-old GPUs that beat M5 Ultra in compute efficiency.

I know that "Apple is behind" is a tough pill to swallow, but they literally have no analog to CUDA, CDNA or even TPU technology. Nvidia SOCs like Tegra prove that Apple could absolutely bring GPGPU tech to low-power hardware like the iPad and iOS without giving up any real features. Apple just refuses to invest in it.

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I feel like you didn’t read my original post cause you’re just repeating the original claim that they need to compete in components market instead of consumer product market
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I wonder how many units Meta bought to convince Apple to do a collaborative advertisement.
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Now scale that up to Nvidia and you've understood the entire AI market
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Both companies are profitable and AI is not their main line of business. This affects pure AI companies.

As open weight models continue to match frontier models, the race to $0 will continue to benefit supporters of running open weight models locally.

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It won't be free for Apple to use Meta's model in the future.
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Even in the unlikely case that does happen, there are plenty of other open weight models like Qwen, GLM, and Mistral to name a few
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