upvote
I'm sorry and will be the first to admit I went for this too, but "using agents to write more tools for agents." is literally the problem.

The purpose of software is to help people with their problems. I think it's easy to tell ourselves that other people want to use our tools which we really made to help ourselves (especially if them using it also helps ourselves even more!). And also, this is all so new and there are real opportunities that it is good to learn and try new things and be open to actually making something valuable.

But! Other people extensively using agents are literally the last people who would pay for a project like this! And unless it's a fulltime job like it is for a 5 or so well resourced tech companies, it's hard to make something as good and useful as them. I say this as someone who spent a long time on this problem as my fulltime job.

We should still have fun with our work. But literally, "software for other software people, that solves the problem of us needing to write more software for writing software, faster", who is that helping? There are no constraints or end users besides ourselves, and half of that is not so much it benefiting us through productivity, but learning new things and play - again, important. But there's a reason so many people are doing this and I think it's because they don't have to go outside and solve someone else's problem, or do something unusual, or involving unfun non-software aspects - agents are fun! But how many random people's agent have you installed?

IMO: if the technology does not help a non-technology person live a better life, and especially if it involves "using an agent to build a framework for agents" we should do some more, deeper introspection about what problem we are actually solving and whether or not we're being ambitious. And I say that not to pick on you but myself.

reply
I really love your viewpoint. And I also see that around me a lot of people developing their own custom stuff that fits to their way of thinking, but not apt to others, so everyone developing their own custom. It is fast an cheap, exciting and comfortable. I am a bit puzzled as I see hyperpersonalised sw is a way to divide us and put us in an echo chamber. No need to understand how others work or think… And we loose our knowledge that is comming from the experience of interacting whit other way of thinking.
reply
I see your point. In this case I'm intentionally reinventing the wheel for the sake of correctness and quality.

For the end user, the outcome will likely be the same when compared to opencode or similar, but the journey will be nicer

I expect no one to actually use it though, however nice it might be to hope for that

reply
I do wish you well and think it's good for us to work on these tools if only to help ourselves better understand how to work with these things, and have fun. I've actually had a blast working on agent tooling with agents too.

What I fear is that as computer people we can easily convince ourselves to avoid doing things in-person or which involve leaving the comfort of our inner/online lives, or having to bridge technology with some other thing that is very much not technology (like non technical people, or sales and marketing), or is but is not easy to work with (like a robot). But there are actually a ton of problems that need solving there, and they are uncomfortable because it might involve looking stupid or showing up somewhere nobody knows you, or unknown-unknowns.

Personally I am embarrassed at myself not for trying to solve my own problems (I want to spend all day doing tech stuff and make money selling it to other people doing tech stuff) but for how long it took me to realize that I was either anxious or thought I was above doing something more concrete and mundane.

For example, this is a popular music venue in the city I live in https://www.thegreatnorthernsf.com/ - Claude and Codex have been out for months; it would take like 20 minutes to give their site a makeover, mostly just watching AI work.

This is how local government events are coordinate in the most technologically forward city in the world. Double irony that the product is provided by one of the biggest tech companies in the city, too. But it's literally just a web form and some poor government worker is apologizing in the event details that the signups are broken: https://sfrpd.my.salesforce-sites.com/SFRPDJob?sShiftId=a09P...

I think agents are very fun and cool but I'm increasingly convinced that my job is to use them to help this type of user, not developers.

reply
I've been working on using Svelte + Rust to make desktop apps with native UI frameworks [1], resuscitating a COVID era side project that I felt was intractable at the time. I havent updated the docs or README.md so you'll have to point an agent at it to figure it out, but so far GTK/QT are fairly complete and I'm working on WinUI/AppKit.

[1] https://github.com/akiselev/svelters

reply
> Naturally, game engines are crazy optimized, so the UI runs butter smooth and uses pretty much no resources.

We should build everything using a AAA FPS engine loop now that we can. The amount of shit that happens in one rendered frame of overwatch is wild. And then we go and do like 200 of those per second.

reply
Yeah but it’s okay if overwatch takes all of your computer’s effort to run. Imagine if postman used 13 gb of vram
reply
If your program does 1/1000 of the GPU work Overwatch does every frame, it will cost in the order of magnitude of 1/1000 of what Overwatch costs to render (some fixed costs aside) -- taking aside the fact that you also don't need to re-render the entire window every vblank.
reply
i mean, sometimes it feels like it does
reply
VRAM isn't RAM. Unless your postman is rendering 3D objects.
reply
Yes yes I know that. Do I really need to post a sarcasm tag.
reply
One recent performance issue that was raised by a customer was in the end a tiny svg animation loop that was on all the time even when the tab was inactive. So no game engine loops for my customers.
reply
No you won't. Firstly because your software is one of dozens running and it doesn't get to take the privilege of fucking over my battery consumption and asking for my GPU to spin so you can edit markdown, and also because 2D rendering is miserable and non-performant in every single game engine you can think off. 2D sucks to make, 2D eats half of your frame time by just existing and slicing those triangles.
reply
What?

You can try rendering a 2D rectangle as 2 quads in whatever GPU API you like the most, then try pushing the same amount of pixels to a CPU buffer via the widest CPU memory write instructions you can have (and then wait the GPU-accelerated compositor upload them to the GPU anyways to present them...).

I can tell you for a fact one will be 2 orders of magnitude faster, want to make bet which one?

Using a GPU api does not imply you have to render at the screen's refresh rate, or even that you have to update the entire window.

reply
Haha, in my case, it only renders when frames are needed. Otherwise it's basically an image at 0fps.
reply
> no one uses IDEs any more This is false. Plenty of people using IDEs every day
reply
True but the number is also decreasing every day. And I'd imagine that it's decreasing pretty rapidly.
reply
claude code and codex are literally IDEs. as are any other remote agent that you use like them

you're not "in the terminal", in fact the product is selling you on the concept of being "in the terminal" as you work, but you're literally just asking a computer with ~full userspace access and direct ability to compile and run programs to do stuff for you, in an environment with "plugins" and like 30 "slash commands" and menus. it has auto-review and manages git for you and even writes your PR descriptions and other messages to your colleagues if you want. that is an integrated development environment.

I think if you can just run a one line bash command from a big company's website, and then just ask it to set up git and everything else for you (which it will default to anyway), and it tries to sell you on third party plugs in and Skills and managed proxies like MCP, and workflows, you are just using the new kind of IDE. And there is nothing bad about that because it makes us more productive to not have to mess with things like that. The idea that you are not using an IDE, or that we are "better" because the IDE looks like the development environment of the type of developer we'd admired in the post (but literally has the value proposition of being the easy way to accomplish that), is dangerous.

reply
So what are they going to review the slop in? Or are they just not gonna bother checking?

We are gonna see some Knight Capital level fuckups shortly.

reply
I've been an emacs user for most of my life, before I even went to college. I took a brief (5 years) tour into IDEs for writing code on the job, but the moment agents became a viable way to develop code I switched back into emacs. I love reviewing changes in magit.

I'm pretty sure many folks put up with the bloat of IDEs just for the functionality they offered. Now, they're hopping back to emacs, vim, sublime, whatever their heart desires.

reply
Controversial take: Looking at lines of code is no longer a feasible task. Also it adds very little to quality for large swathes of user facing functionality. Instead focussing that much time on building a robust test suite is a better application of developer time.
reply
Agreed. I get the best outcomes out of agents when I use them as essentially autocomplete.

"Render what I was thinking"

I just double check to make sure it aligns

reply
deleted
reply
>Or are they just not gonna bother checking?

They're not going to bother checking. It simply isn't going to be possible for humans to review code in the future where all code is being written by machines, and not having all code be written by machines is not an option.

Hell in the future LLMs probably won't even work with "code" at all, just bytecode directly, using some format created by and optimized for LLMs. Why even bother with text when no human will ever lay eyes on it?

>We are gonna see some Knight Capital level fuckups shortly.

Yes, but humans fuck up too so it doesn't matter. Future go brrr.

reply
Trying to review slop code by eye is as productive as using pencil and paper to check address arithmetic in assembly from a compiler.
reply
This is awesome and I'm glad things are moving in this direction. I've been playing with Crux (Rust + Native UI) myself: https://github.com/redbadger/crux
reply